Roll cage advise

[gaboonviper85]

Poodles you really have no clue...you should just stop talking as this really is over your head...hell I doubt you've ever welded! You are regurging info that is shady at best...I expect better from you but you're slowly showing me you're no different then all the rest Internet racecar mall ninjas!

Seriously poo...know your roll and know when too stfu...

Show us some sort of proof that you personally have experience in this subject...till then just stop talking as it's embarrasing too read you're bull!

 

[supraguru05]

k well back on topic lol

there is a issue with putting a cage in a targa car. now this depends heavily on the sanctioning body as road race cages are not allowed as many bends as drag race cages. the bolts in the rear and the front prevent the cage from being tucked super high in the car. if your car is a targa and your having a custom cage put in i recommend welding the targa in and removing the rear bolts and at least including the cross member that they are welded into in order to gain a inch or more of height.

now im not sure what nhra specs are but if you dont have a top hoop then this probably wont be a issue. BUT i stand firmly by the need for a top hoop and a pillar bars because with just a main hoop the a pillars can still collapse on you.

also my cage is DOM tubing, not because i couldnt afford moly but because nasa specs in order to reduce costs of racing specify a tubing size for each weight regardless of material. this prevents people from having the weight savings of chrome-moly which reduces the cost for everyone. as far as tubing goes be sure if you get mild that it is DOM not seamed tubing.

another trick to putting cages into the mk3s is to use pilth boxes and push the cage out onto the rockers. if you dont know what these are look them up on google.

if your looking at a nhra legal cage it should be rather cheap to have a shop make you a DOM cage. ask guys at your track where their cages were made. look at the welds, the notches, the fit and go talk to all the shops. i wouldnt expect to pay more than 2k for the nhra cage. also be sure to have what ever seat you are using for fitment with the cage as well as the harnesses already selected.

 

[Neodeuccio]

Ok, so I did some more looking and found that I don't need a complete cage, just a roll bar. I plan on doing SCCA solo events for fun and avoiding drag racing, so I found their requirements and read through it with this page open next to it. It looks like a 6 or 8 point will do just fine, though with a little customization/modification.

Now, I've also planned on doing a weld-in targa brace, with a custom top piece designed to fit and look like a targa top, but without the thickness or weight. Does anyone know if I'd be required to drive with the targa off? Do they consider targa cars to be convertibles?

 

[Poodles]

Poodles.

4130 is used for a reason. Its stronger pound for pound than any other ferrous steel out there. It also retains memory. Once bent to shape, it has a "spring" effect in that it wants to return to its original position and shape.

Ask this guy if he would rather have mild steel or 4130?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69G0ay8kSkI

And then ask this guy how much he likes his mild steel, electronically seam welded cage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlxnDJ1wQbI

NASCAR was going much faster. Energy increases at the square of velocity.

Yes DOM and Mild Steel (Seam welded) cages can be made strong. They can be made to do the job. At the end of the day, properly welded vs properly welded, the 4130 is going to win hands down every time.

Yes chomoly is great when properly constructed. But, it still has to be constantly inspected for cracks at the welds. Aircraft have the same issues and they spend a hell of a lot more than your average racer.

As for quoting NHRA - you're playing with fire there. These are the same ass holes who said that top fuel rail and funny car chassis were to be HEAT TREATED after welding.

WOW. Just wow. That's giving your drivers a coffin @ 300mph. As John Force how well he likes his heat treated 4130 chassis.

Obviously you missed my first link on the chassis failures. They then said to heat treat the chassis to make them not fail. :rofl: I quoted their specs as they were the easiest to find, if I could find the SCCA specs I would have posted them.

Now, if you'd like to continue to argue, please show me how many 200mph dragsters you've welded on and list all the midget / sprint cars frames that have flipped out of the ball park with the driver walking away - that you've welded on or designed.

If experience was the only way to get knowledge, then people wouldn't go to school, nice personal attack BTW.

 

[MDCmotorsports]

Im done here. Think what you want. What you think isn't right. Keep typing those letters on the screen. Some day you'll believe your own bull shit. (And if you think what I wrote earlier is a personal attack, you need to wake up.)

As for the OP or any body else about cages & chrome molly, feel free to pm me.

 

[supraguru05]

Ok, so I did some more looking and found that I don't need a complete cage, just a roll bar. I plan on doing SCCA solo events for fun and avoiding drag racing, so I found their requirements and read through it with this page open next to it. It looks like a 6 or 8 point will do just fine, though with a little customization/modification.

Now, I've also planned on doing a weld-in targa brace, with a custom top piece designed to fit and look like a targa top, but without the thickness or weight. Does anyone know if I'd be required to drive with the targa off? Do they consider targa cars to be convertibles?

they do not consider our cars a convertible

what you need to do is move slow right now. so if im understanding you right you just want to do some scca racing. do you mean autocross or road racing. and if road racing are you talking HPDE or the timed solo events

 

[Clip]

fuck that i gonna make mine out of oak

Alright there Hommer

 

[NashMan]

Alright there Hommer

i gonna use screw's instead of nails..... you should be proud maybe even glue ?

 

[Neodeuccio]

they do not consider our cars a convertible

what you need to do is move slow right now. so if im understanding you right you just want to do some scca racing. do you mean autocross or road racing. and if road racing are you talking HPDE or the timed solo events

I've only ever heard of autocross and road racing being used to describe the same event, though you apparently believe differently. What's the difference? I love the idea of track racing, and intend to do it eventually, but I've never done it before and don't really know much about it.


Personally, what I'd like to do is get myself into a driving school or two that teaches you the technical side of racing, then puts you in your own car. From there, I don't really care about the details, I just want to get her on a track that isn't straight and drive. SCCA Solo events just look like the easiest and most readily available option. So for me, a roll bar is both a structural/safety piece, and a necessity if I ever want to get her track-side.

 

[Neodeuccio]

i gonna use screw's instead of nails..... you should be proud maybe even glue ?

Nash, you are... different. But you never fail to make me laugh!
:biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh:

 

[funky_monkey58]

NASCAR was going much faster. Energy increases at the square of velocity.



Yes chomoly is great when properly constructed. But, it still has to be constantly inspected for cracks at the welds. Aircraft have the same issues and they spend a hell of a lot more than your average racer.



Obviously you missed my first link on the chassis failures. They then said to heat treat the chassis to make them not fail. :rofl: I quoted their specs as they were the easiest to find, if I could find the SCCA specs I would have posted them.



If experience was the only way to get knowledge, then people wouldn't go to school, nice personal attack BTW.

All of my professors for engineering have real world experience and will openly admit that there is no replacement for actually doing it.

As far as my life is concerned, a cage is not the place to use bullshit that you just read online. Go talk to some racers that have crashed. Or go to a chassis shop, and look how they are doing things, and just keep in mind how rigged some of these stock cars really are.

There is a local chassis shop that builds dirt racing chassis's and to be honest they work great for that but I would not trust them in high speeds.

Have you ever even been in the pits at a race?

In a garage filled with race cars? and not in a tour group?


And as I stated previously DOM tubing will work just fine for what the OP needs. But DOM=/=to chromoly.

 

[upgradedsupra]

Boy this took off. Well Ill just be running the 8-point for now. Like said earlier, I can add on in needed. Will probably run the dom. Also will be using the approved swinging door bars.

FYI, I have a cage, just not enough of it. The 6 point is good to 135 or a 10.0. I had more cage in it but cut it out because it was in the way of me changing my dash interior. I still have my 6 point and may add to it again, we'll see.

Duane

 

[Tun_x]

Cages are like anything else in racing ...... You get what what you pay for!!!!

Money talks and sh#T walks

Jason


P.S.
I love all the discussion about cages from people who don't have or are even remotely close to needing one and probably never will...

 

[Cz.]

I've only ever heard of autocross and road racing being used to describe the same event, though you apparently believe differently. What's the difference? I love the idea of track racing, and intend to do it eventually, but I've never done it before and don't really know much about it.

AutoX is usually done in a big parking lot with cones. The courses are a lot more technical and you never really go that fast. The ones I've been to I never got out of second gear.
Road racing is done on an actual course, usually much higher speeds.
The environments are fundamentally different.

 

[GotTurbos?]

Back on topic:

When I had my first cage built there were a few problems:
I didn't have them put the forward bars through the dash, they kind of contoured around it and then went forward. This was a mistake for a few reasons. The front mounting point of the cage was about 6" further back than the gas/brake pedals. This means in the event of a hard front end collision my legs were in danger. So... if you get a full roll cage and not just a roll bar, have them cut the dash and go through it and have the mounting points as far forward (see: close to firewall) as possible.

Another issue I ran into was my cross bar (one that runs across where your left arm is) With the front mounting point of the cage further towards the back than it should be it changed the angle at which this bar sat, making it impossible to fit any seat in there as there just wasn't any room for a side bolster.

I had my whole cage redone a second time and learned my lesson. My cage is an 8point chromoly and weighs in the area of 70lbs, not too bad. Hope this helps.

 

[gotsomegetsome]

When someone says "my cage is good to 135 or 10 sec" that is just silly. for all you know the cage can handle some #lb force impact to side of your vehicle and be fine but in another vehicle, completely different.

You are playing with your life i think

 

[dbsupra90]

When someone says "my cage is good to 135 or 10 sec" that is just silly. for all you know the cage can handle some #lb force impact to side of your vehicle and be fine but in another vehicle, completely different.

You are playing with your life i think

they are speaking about nhra requirements. the cage in my car that runs 10's isn't certified to run the 8.20's that my friend's car does. completely different requirements and a lot more bars.

 

[Neodeuccio]

P.S.
I love all the discussion about cages from people who don't have or are even remotely close to needing one and probably never will...

I'd rather have a cage and never need one than think "I'll never need one" and not have it when I do need one.

Besides, just because you don't need a cage because some rulebook says you do, there's little reason not to have one if you enjoy agressive driving. the added safety and rigidity are a major bonus, and if you use a mild/DOM steel, the price isn't that bad.


I don't really understand how you can fault someone for thinking ahead when it comes to safety gear.

 

[supraguru05]

ok im still confused on what racing your doing. autocross is in a parking lot with cones. and road racing is done on a road course like mid ohio, willow springs, VIR etc. if your doing casual road racing for schools or with organizations like PCA, trackdaze etc that are not wheel to wheel competition then you do not have requirements really. now if you wanted to run a fia seat (i recommend to) and have a roll bar then your best/cheapest option is to have a roll bar only installed. this will not have door bars or a front hoop it will look like this.

with a diagonal inside of the main hoop. this will allow you to mproperly run a racing harness. i would have the roll bar and the harnesses installed by a shop along with the seats and call it good for now. you will lose your back seats. use 1 3/4 .120 wall DOM tubing. that will meet rules for nasa and scca if you decide later to add the front half of the cage. also be sure the base plates meet the requirements for area and thickness. the down tubes of the roll bar can either extend to the rear hatch area or go to the strut towers. mine go as far back as i could get them

hope this helps

also check out the nasa ccr at this website for a great discription of cages

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf

 

[Neodeuccio]

As of yet I don't race, since I'm still building my car. But I want to make sure that I cover all the bases as I work. I will be putting a roll bar in, even if I don't need it per the requirements of the competition, as a safety feature. I will probably have a swing away/removable door bar, probably on both sides, since I think they're a good idea. Though I will be skipping the front hoop since it's a pain in the ass, and I don't specifically need it to compete.

DOM is the way I'll be going, to cut costs.