Ring gap confusion

Facime

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Jun 1, 2006
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Looking a the specs in the book I see that they are quit a bit different from what adjuster mentioned as an update to his 7M assembly tips. As Im using stock pistons and stock rings I was thinking I should go with the books specs. My problem lies in the fact that upon initial check the gaps are not even close. I mean there is almost no gap right now. Starting with ring #2 (for no good reason) the gap is at about .015mm and the book calls for .24 to .53

Is it normal for a ring to require that much material removed?
 

jdub

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Feb 10, 2006
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^^^ So did the rings that came with my Ross pistons.
Think of it like this...once the material is removed, you can't put it back ;)
 

Facime

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jdub said:
^^^ So did the rings that came with my Ross pistons.
Think of it like this...once the material is removed, you can't put it back ;)

I know, well thats part of the reason I stopped right there, I didnt want to screw it up and end up waiting on a new set of rings.


bigaaron said:
If the ring gap is that small with stock rings, then the bore is probably too small.
The block just came back from a reputable shop and was bored to spec for the pistons. Scroggins is the place that Champion Toyota takes its machine work so I doubt thats my problem. The pistons seem to fot the bores nicely but I'll see if I can double check that spec too.


Anyone able to confirm why adjuster would say he gapped his top ring at "17" and the 2nd at "19"? niether of those numbers make sense compared to the TSRM.



EDIT: I think I see my mistake: double checking now

EDIT#2: yep, simple mistake and why I double check things before doing any "cutting". (the old measure twice cut once adage) I was converting inches to mm when I didnt need to. .017Inches is indead quite a bit smaller than .017mm! lol. Someone slap me and delete this thread before Im any more humiliated ;)
 
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bigaaron

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.017" and .019" is pretty normal.

I would have the bore checked, factory rings are not file fit iirc.

Are you using a piston to push the ring into the bore and make sure it's straight?
Usually we take an old piston with just an old 2nd ring on it, and use that to push the ring down in the bore till it stops on the 2nd ring.
 
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Jaguar_5

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Feb 7, 2006
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.017" - .019" is what adjuster meant, this is probably for aftermarket pistons, on a engine that will be high-hp! For lots of power, you'll have more heat, so more expansion, you allow more room for the gap to close, without risking having the ends butt

Tsrm calls for .010" - .020 for the 2nd ring
.011" - .017" for the top ring
 
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Facime

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Yep, thanks guys. When I saw you posting the spec as x" it dawned on me. It was a noob mistake, but Im still glad Im taking it slow. If my mentor would get done doing what hes doing and come over, this would probably go alot faster, lol
 

Adjuster

Supramania Contributor
17 lower, and 19 upper.

Measured in thousands of an inch. (.17 on the feeler gauge... and .19 on the feeler gauge...)

Last thing you want is the upper ring to seal more than the lower one.. this will cause the pressure trapped between them to flutter the rings, and could cause them to break/crack.

Also the gap is not that huge of a leak in the real world.

You have the gaps on different sides of the piston in the first place.

You also have quite a bit of blow by that escapes around the ring/piston and bore wall v/s the small gap area on the ring alone.

Bigger gaps, and why I set mine near the open end of the spec for the ROSS pistons was to ensure that they never, ever will expand and stick, and cause a flutter from trapped pressure.

I was talking to a race engine builder. He said he used to just coat the piston and rings with 30wt engine oil when he assembled his motors, and then one day noticed a guy using WD40.. So they got to talking, and the guy using the WD40 says his theory is that the light weight oil is only needed to lube the rings for installation, You don't really want the rings to NOT scrape the bore, you WANT them to scrape the bore.. (Think about that, it is the only way you can get your rings to seat, and seat quickly...)

Also the light weight oil does not build up as much carbon when it is burned off when you first start the motor... however, I think there is some oil that does get past the oil control rings, so I'm not sold on the idea that starting with WD40 keeps your rings cleaner forever, but why not start cleaner if you can?

Just my.02, I built my current engine lubed up with engine oil... LOL (But I would have used WD40 had I known this tidbit before then...)

BTW, ONLY on the piston rings. Lube the skirts and oil control ring with engine oil... and make sure you use a good assembly lube on your bearings and other friction surfaces to keep bearing wear/dmg to a minimum when you do that first start up of the engine. (It helps to crank over the engine with the CPS unplugged, or if you have an accusump, you can pre-lube the engine too.)

:) Good luck on fitting your stock rings. I don't see any reason you can't file them to fit if they are too tight. Just be very careful, take lots of readings, and use an old piston to set the rings down about 1" from the block deck for an accurate reading. I fit mine to each bore, and kept them seperate with each piston for each bore. (Sharpie pens rule to mark stuff up. Use dots for your rings... IE: 1 dot is Cyc. #1... Or just put the rings onto the pistons when you gap them, and mark each piston for each bore.. (Less dots to worry about..) Make sure you don't scratch your pistons with the sharp edges of the rings. Also do not twist your rings, it could break them, or stress them more than you'd like, causing a place when they can break later.
 

rot 90na-t

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Apr 13, 2006
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i just spoke with JE and they suggested .022 top, .020, second, and .015 for oil ring... hows this sound for an expected 350-400hp at 15-20lbs?
 

IJ.

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Hmmmm not wanting to start shit or anything but conventional wisdom is to set the second compression ring looser than the first so gas can escape past it and not flutter the 1st ring.
(Pretty sure this was a brainfart by Greg)
 

rot 90na-t

slowest project ever
Apr 13, 2006
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IJ. said:
Hmmmm not wanting to start shit or anything but conventional wisdom is to set the second compression ring looser than the first so gas can escape past it and not flutter the 1st ring.
(Pretty sure this was a brainfart by Greg)

oops nope that was a tard moment for me, i meant to say he told me .020 top, .022 second.. i've heard of guys goin with .017 and .019 too.. whatya think IJ?
 

IJ.

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I tried tight settings last year and lost a motor when it nipped up after leaning out a touch :(

From memory I shot for 20/22 this build and there's no real blow by.

Greg posted it upside down as well ;)

Adjuster said:
17 lower, and 19 upper.

Measured in thousands of an inch. (.17 on the feeler gauge... and .19 on the feeler gauge...)

Last thing you want is the upper ring to seal more than the lower one.. this will cause the pressure trapped between them to flutter the rings, and could cause them to break/crack.

.