Quick questions about the headlights.
- Thread starter Doward
- Start date
Doward, what are the relay terminal numbers you are probing when you measure 10V (they are marked 1 3 4 5 in the TEWD)? I suspect that you are seeing the effect of looking into the high resistance off-state collector. It would be on the same order as your meter resistance.
Based on all the testing to date it seems that the culprit is the integration relay. I know you substituted one already, but it does not seem possible that it could be anything else.
JJ, maybe I'm misunderstanding, but the stock high and low beam grounds go directly to the combo dimmer switch, the integration relay is not involved. One or the other is always grounded.
Based on all the testing to date it seems that the culprit is the integration relay. I know you substituted one already, but it does not seem possible that it could be anything else.
JJ, maybe I'm misunderstanding, but the stock high and low beam grounds go directly to the combo dimmer switch, the integration relay is not involved. One or the other is always grounded.
That's what I'm telling him. The integration relay isn't involved in supplying ground to the lamps (or his new relays).
How are you interpreting the combo switch light control section's handling of the lamp grounds? Pins 12 and 3? Pin 20 looks to be the trigger for the IR, not pin 14. 14 looks to be the trigger for the retraction motors during a flash.
Now that I look at my 87 EWD more closely I see the combo switch section is different from the online version. Jeez, maybe I'm the one who's confused
How are you interpreting the combo switch light control section's handling of the lamp grounds? Pins 12 and 3? Pin 20 looks to be the trigger for the IR, not pin 14. 14 looks to be the trigger for the retraction motors during a flash.
Now that I look at my 87 EWD more closely I see the combo switch section is different from the online version. Jeez, maybe I'm the one who's confused
From the online TEWD, it seems that 14 is used to trigger the lamp relay and raise the lamps based on the flash feature that only grounds pins 14/12 and leaves 20 untouched.
The extra pin 20 seems to be used to control how the lamps are retracted in conjunction with 14/12.
When I pulled apart Integration Relay no. 1 there was a custom ASIC that handled the logic. Probably the same here for no. 2.
A real mystery to me is why the GTE A/T needs a diode between 13 and 14. I suppose something must be different in the ECU LP input.
The extra pin 20 seems to be used to control how the lamps are retracted in conjunction with 14/12.
When I pulled apart Integration Relay no. 1 there was a custom ASIC that handled the logic. Probably the same here for no. 2.
A real mystery to me is why the GTE A/T needs a diode between 13 and 14. I suppose something must be different in the ECU LP input.
ok...
it's VERY easy to remove the cover off the integration relay and look at the relays inside of it...
remove it and pug it in and try everything, you should be able to see if the relays are functioning...
Diagnosing is so damn hard over the internet, if I was there in person I bet I'd have it fixed by now...
it's VERY easy to remove the cover off the integration relay and look at the relays inside of it...
remove it and pug it in and try everything, you should be able to see if the relays are functioning...
Diagnosing is so damn hard over the internet, if I was there in person I bet I'd have it fixed by now...
Quick reply here, but Poodles - already popped it open. The relays in the integration relay are for retraction only (I am treating my retraction problem as a separate entity for the time being)
I'll be heading to the garage in a few to verify the grounds.
*edit* also, so there is no confusion, I know the combo switch doesn't control the grounds for the lamps. I have my new Hella relays activated/deactivated by the combo switch. I don't know why I put 'via the integration relay' :rofl:
The integration relay DOES control the ground to the stock headlight relay, though, via wire #10.
3p, Maybe the online TEWD/TSRM is different, but my 87 TSRM lists the stock headlight relay terminals as 1-2-3-4. It is where terminal 2 would go, that I read the 10v signal.
*edit2* If I pull the negative battery terminal, hook it back up, I have no continuity to ground from combo switch Low Beam (red/blue wire, switch in Off position). If I turn on Low Beams, I get continuity to ground from combo switch. If I turn combo switch back off, continuity stays.
Time for lunch, then I'll go back at it. If I'm looking at this correctly, 'Off' should completely cut ground.
I'll be heading to the garage in a few to verify the grounds.
*edit* also, so there is no confusion, I know the combo switch doesn't control the grounds for the lamps. I have my new Hella relays activated/deactivated by the combo switch. I don't know why I put 'via the integration relay' :rofl:
The integration relay DOES control the ground to the stock headlight relay, though, via wire #10.
3p, Maybe the online TEWD/TSRM is different, but my 87 TSRM lists the stock headlight relay terminals as 1-2-3-4. It is where terminal 2 would go, that I read the 10v signal.
*edit2* If I pull the negative battery terminal, hook it back up, I have no continuity to ground from combo switch Low Beam (red/blue wire, switch in Off position). If I turn on Low Beams, I get continuity to ground from combo switch. If I turn combo switch back off, continuity stays.
Time for lunch, then I'll go back at it. If I'm looking at this correctly, 'Off' should completely cut ground.
Pood: I don't think it's his integration relay. Even if it was it's ASIC based as 3p said and opening it seems useless since the HL relay is transistor driven. I suppose he could have multiple bad one though.I could also resolve it in a flash if I was there by doing it the old fashioned way: signal tracing.
3p: Gotta run but I'll be back later with a few comments. Yeah, that diode is weird. Since many automatic tranny Toyotas idle up when placed in other than P or N it may have something to do with that. I never looked closely at it because I don't have an auto. A simpler view is shown in the light auto-off print, which verifies you're right about 13/14 on the combo switch as being the trigger for the HL relay:
http://tinyurl.com/yosqqx
I need to get more motivated about looking into this
3p: Gotta run but I'll be back later with a few comments. Yeah, that diode is weird. Since many automatic tranny Toyotas idle up when placed in other than P or N it may have something to do with that. I never looked closely at it because I don't have an auto. A simpler view is shown in the light auto-off print, which verifies you're right about 13/14 on the combo switch as being the trigger for the HL relay:
http://tinyurl.com/yosqqx
I need to get more motivated about looking into this
When the light control switch is set to 'OFF' ground should be completely broken to the lamps, if I'm reading this right.
I appreciate all of your guy's help, truly!
(JJ, I think you were looking at it as 'the combo switch should kill the whole thing, by breaking grounds on the lamps' and I was looking at it from the other side -deactivating the stock headlight relay should kill the whole thing, by breaking the power to the lamps)
I appreciate all of your guy's help, truly!
(JJ, I think you were looking at it as 'the combo switch should kill the whole thing, by breaking grounds on the lamps' and I was looking at it from the other side -deactivating the stock headlight relay should kill the whole thing, by breaking the power to the lamps)
I was on the road when all this started and only last night got home to really look into it. That my 87 EWD (didn't have access to it when I was away) doesn't match the online one didn't help.
The grounds through the combo switch won't kill everything. They run through it only for the purposes of controlling hi/low beams. That's the only time they get switched, otherwise they're connected when off. Since the combo switch legend seems a bit confusing and is different than my EWD I metered them to be sure.
While I was there I mocked the control side of this up on my car and it works just as it should. No real surprise there since it's such a simple circuit. As long as you have the pigtails wired right it should work. Looking at the connector left is high beam (R-B), top is low beam (R-L) and right is power from the IR (R).
I dunno. Maybe you do have multiple bad IRs. Or maybe a bad combo switch. That you can "reset" the circuit tells me the IR is likely not the problem though. The only way to know is to signal trace this out. It should be simple. Does everything work when stock? I forget if I asked.
I suggest you disconnect your rig from the stock pigtails and measure the right side pins to ground. Or see if the HL relay is still staying engaged with everything disconnected and the stock pigtails hanging empty. We need to narrow this down using better techniques than floundering. Too much miscommunication too
The grounds through the combo switch won't kill everything. They run through it only for the purposes of controlling hi/low beams. That's the only time they get switched, otherwise they're connected when off. Since the combo switch legend seems a bit confusing and is different than my EWD I metered them to be sure.
While I was there I mocked the control side of this up on my car and it works just as it should. No real surprise there since it's such a simple circuit. As long as you have the pigtails wired right it should work. Looking at the connector left is high beam (R-B), top is low beam (R-L) and right is power from the IR (R).
I dunno. Maybe you do have multiple bad IRs. Or maybe a bad combo switch. That you can "reset" the circuit tells me the IR is likely not the problem though. The only way to know is to signal trace this out. It should be simple. Does everything work when stock? I forget if I asked.
I suggest you disconnect your rig from the stock pigtails and measure the right side pins to ground. Or see if the HL relay is still staying engaged with everything disconnected and the stock pigtails hanging empty. We need to narrow this down using better techniques than floundering. Too much miscommunication too
Will do, and I appreciate it!
FWIW, this is an '88 Turbo. I've got a spare combo switch here from an '89, and all the signals work out exactly as they are in my '87 TSRM (except according to the continuity test, this combo switch's left turn signal isn't good)
FWIW, this is an '88 Turbo. I've got a spare combo switch here from an '89, and all the signals work out exactly as they are in my '87 TSRM (except according to the continuity test, this combo switch's left turn signal isn't good)
I see. Well, as poodles points out it's tough to do this in cyberspace. I'm also wondering if the difference in combo switch legends translate into a problem with you using one from a different model year. I would think not but it means more circuit analysis is required to be sure.
If I was there I'd simply slap a meter on it and find the problem. I've no doubt 3p would approach it the same way. Since we're not there we either have to come up with alternate techniques or walk you through the measurements. Since I can see you're far from being electically incompetent that should be easy. In fact this whole thing should never have gotten this far. That's the interweb for you
If I was there I'd simply slap a meter on it and find the problem. I've no doubt 3p would approach it the same way. Since we're not there we either have to come up with alternate techniques or walk you through the measurements. Since I can see you're far from being electically incompetent that should be easy. In fact this whole thing should never have gotten this far. That's the interweb for you
Feel free to lead me around, lol.
I completely pulled my relay apparatus out. I cut it back to the stock pigtails, and pulled the entire thing out of the car.
That done, this is what I have -
With EITHER combo switch, I can go through everything EXCEPT the actual 'Headlights' with zero problems. Tails/sidemarkers come on, go off, no problems.
As soon as I select Headlights, headlights come on (tails already on) and it all stays stuck like that, no matter what I switch to on the combination switch. High beams/low beams get proper 12v (I'm having to measure this all at the wires, since the pigtails were cut off to run my relays.
Results:
Combination switch setting - voltages read - wires read
Off - 0v - Red to Red/Blue and Red/Black
1st click (which wtf is this setting anyway?) - 0v - Red to Red/Blue and Red/black
Tails - 0v - Red to Red/Blue and Red/Black
Headlights (low) - 12.2v - Red to Red/Blue
Headlights (high) - 12.2v - Red to Red/Black
Back to Off - 12.2v - Red to Red/Blue
Exact same thing on the other side, but the 12v wire is Red/White, not solid Red.
When I switch between Tails and Off, I can hear the Taillight relay energizing and releasing.
When I switch to Headlights, I can hear the headlight relay energizing, but I do not hear it release until I either unplug the integration relay (tried both) or pull the negative battery terminal.
Also, directly grounding terminal 14 on the integration relay is supposed to make the headlight retractors work - it does nothing.
Strange aside, earlier when I unplugged the Taillight Relay, the retractors suddenly came on, and pulled the headlights down. Activating the Headlights had the retractors lift the headlights into position. Have not been able to duplicate this since (this was before pulling my Hella relays, and both Hellas were unplugged from the harness)
I completely pulled my relay apparatus out. I cut it back to the stock pigtails, and pulled the entire thing out of the car.
That done, this is what I have -
With EITHER combo switch, I can go through everything EXCEPT the actual 'Headlights' with zero problems. Tails/sidemarkers come on, go off, no problems.
As soon as I select Headlights, headlights come on (tails already on) and it all stays stuck like that, no matter what I switch to on the combination switch. High beams/low beams get proper 12v (I'm having to measure this all at the wires, since the pigtails were cut off to run my relays.
Results:
Combination switch setting - voltages read - wires read
Off - 0v - Red to Red/Blue and Red/Black
1st click (which wtf is this setting anyway?) - 0v - Red to Red/Blue and Red/black
Tails - 0v - Red to Red/Blue and Red/Black
Headlights (low) - 12.2v - Red to Red/Blue
Headlights (high) - 12.2v - Red to Red/Black
Back to Off - 12.2v - Red to Red/Blue
Exact same thing on the other side, but the 12v wire is Red/White, not solid Red.
When I switch between Tails and Off, I can hear the Taillight relay energizing and releasing.
When I switch to Headlights, I can hear the headlight relay energizing, but I do not hear it release until I either unplug the integration relay (tried both) or pull the negative battery terminal.
Also, directly grounding terminal 14 on the integration relay is supposed to make the headlight retractors work - it does nothing.
Strange aside, earlier when I unplugged the Taillight Relay, the retractors suddenly came on, and pulled the headlights down. Activating the Headlights had the retractors lift the headlights into position. Have not been able to duplicate this since (this was before pulling my Hella relays, and both Hellas were unplugged from the harness)
hmmm...
when my integration relay was bad and I wasn't able to figure out the issue, I used to jump the relay under the hood which would make the high beams come on when jumped...
something is odd and I can't figure it out...
I'll see what i can figure out from looking at my car, but here's another question, does your high beam indicator work?
if the circuit is load based, it might be confused, have you done a fog light rewire, ect?
when my integration relay was bad and I wasn't able to figure out the issue, I used to jump the relay under the hood which would make the high beams come on when jumped...
something is odd and I can't figure it out...
I'll see what i can figure out from looking at my car, but here's another question, does your high beam indicator work?
if the circuit is load based, it might be confused, have you done a fog light rewire, ect?
You're back to what 3p was saying about the trigger (pin 14) on the IR. You need to see if it's going high when the combo switch is turned off. Either that or try floating it by removing from the connector. If that doesn't drop out the relay I'd verify every pin on the IR connector for proper function, treating the retractors as a separate problem. You could also dummy the IR up on the bench using only the inputs and power needed to run the headlight output.
That would be + 12 to pin 4 and ground to pin 18. Grounding pin 13 should turn on the taillight output on pin 2 and grounding 14 should turn on the headlight output on pin 10. Leave other pins disconnected. Use a relay or test light connected to + 12 and whatever output you're testing.
Or do it in the car by pushing out all except those pins. If it were me I'd be doing it on the bench though, just to stand alone prove the IR headlight function is OK. Once the relay is proved you can turn to verifying the same pins in the car.
On just measure the pins mentioned until you find one that isn't right. If all are right the IR must be bad. Take it out and test it. If it's good go back and do everything again because you missed something
That would be + 12 to pin 4 and ground to pin 18. Grounding pin 13 should turn on the taillight output on pin 2 and grounding 14 should turn on the headlight output on pin 10. Leave other pins disconnected. Use a relay or test light connected to + 12 and whatever output you're testing.
Or do it in the car by pushing out all except those pins. If it were me I'd be doing it on the bench though, just to stand alone prove the IR headlight function is OK. Once the relay is proved you can turn to verifying the same pins in the car.
On just measure the pins mentioned until you find one that isn't right. If all are right the IR must be bad. Take it out and test it. If it's good go back and do everything again because you missed something
Pin 14 grounds when the combo switch is set to Headlights. Pin 14 breaks ground with the combo switch is set to Off.
I don't have the needed tools to pull the pins, and it's kind of a cramped area to work in.
I'm going to give Jeff a call, see if he'll let me get the integration relay and pigtail for it out of the '89 N/A he's parting out. I'll build a damn test bed for this integration relay, using LEDs to verify output.
I don't have the needed tools to pull the pins, and it's kind of a cramped area to work in.
I'm going to give Jeff a call, see if he'll let me get the integration relay and pigtail for it out of the '89 N/A he's parting out. I'll build a damn test bed for this integration relay, using LEDs to verify output.
JJ, in your '87 TEWD, does it show #20 of the combo switch (which goes to #3 of the IR) being grounded in everything except OFF?
My #3 has continuity with ground when combo switch is 1st click/Tails, but no continuity when I go to Headlights. (This is how the TSRM says it should be)
But this - http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TEWD/MK3/manual.aspx?S=Main&P=060 shows otherwise?
My #3 has continuity with ground when combo switch is 1st click/Tails, but no continuity when I go to Headlights. (This is how the TSRM says it should be)
But this - http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TEWD/MK3/manual.aspx?S=Main&P=060 shows otherwise?
It shows it as being grounded only in the Hold or Tail positions. Not grounded in the HL position. If I'm not mistaken that output is used for retraction control.
There are several differences in the combo switch legend between the 87 EWD and the online one. I haven't had the chance to analysis them yet. I promised to take the wife indoor skydiving today and didn't so I have to slack on this for a bit or I'll end up taking more heat
There are several differences in the combo switch legend between the 87 EWD and the online one. I haven't had the chance to analysis them yet. I promised to take the wife indoor skydiving today and didn't so I have to slack on this for a bit or I'll end up taking more heat
LOL, completely understandable I'm just seeing what I can track down at this point (for example, wire #8 of the IR has 12.2v on it. When I hook up the IR, it drops to 10.4v. When I turn the combo switch to Headlights, it drops to .5v - I'm trying to understand why this is happening, and if it is supposed to be)
I'm nothing if not stubborn, lol.
I'm just seeing what I can track down at this point (for example, wire #8 of the IR has 12.2v on it. When I hook up the IR, it drops to 10.4v. When I turn the combo switch to Headlights, it drops to .5v - I'm trying to understand why this is happening, and if it is supposed to be)I'm nothing if not stubborn, lol.
In order for the IC to operate, it would need power and ground going to it, right? (thinking specifically wire #14 ground, that closes when in 'Headlight' selection of the combo switch, and wondering if #11 to the Theft Deterrent Computer is supposed to be a hot wire)
Screw it, just went all through the TSRM EWD, and made this list:
Integration Relay (IR) Wires:
1-----Blue/White----------From wire #3 of Retractor Motors----------Grounded to Wire #18 of IR when IC activates
2-----Green/White--------From Taillight Relay------------------------12v (grounds to activate relay)
3-----Green/Red----------From Wire #20 of the LCS------------------Grounded when Switched to 'Hold or Tail Lights'
4-----Black/red-----------From 15amp ECU IG------------------------Always 12v to IC
5-----Green/Black---------From #8 wire of Integration Relay----------Always 12v to Wire #2 of LH Retractor Motor
6-----Blue----------------From Integration Relay wire #18------------12v when IC activates (grounded otherwise)
7-----Green/Orange-------From #8 wire of Integration Relay-----------Always 12v to Wire #2 of RH Retractor Motor
8-----Red/Green----------From 30amp RTR Fuse----------------------Always 12v, feeds relay coils of wire #5 and wire #7
9-----Violet/Yellow--------From Wire #1 of Retractor Motors----------Grounded to wire #18 of IR when IC activates
10-----Red/Yellow--------From Headlight Relay-----------------------12v (grounds to wire #18 of IR to activate relay)
11-----Yellow/Blue--------To Theft Deterrent System-----------------12v (Alternately grounds/ungrounds when TD System is active)
12-----??????????----------
13-----Pink---------------From Light Control Switch------------------Grounded when Switched to 'Tail Lights or Head Lights'
14-----Violet/White-------From Light Control Switch------------------Grounded when Switched to 'Head Lights'
15-----Red/Green---------From Door Courtesy Switch-----------------Grounded when Door Switch is Closed
16-----Blue/Yellow--------From Integration Relay wire #18------------12v when IC activates (grounded otherwise)
17-----??????????---------?????????????-----------------------------12v when light switch on 'Head Lights', Dimmer switch on 'Low Beams' and fog lights 'On'
18-----Black/White--------From Ground------------------------------Always Grounded
NOTES:
Wire #17 is NOT present in my '88 Wiring Harness but IS listed in the '89 TSRM - I must assume this is an '89+ feature? Wire #12 is NOT present in my '88 Wiring Harness, and I can NOT find it listed anywhere in the TSRM or TEWD.
Screw it, just went all through the TSRM EWD, and made this list:
Integration Relay (IR) Wires:
1-----Blue/White----------From wire #3 of Retractor Motors----------Grounded to Wire #18 of IR when IC activates
2-----Green/White--------From Taillight Relay------------------------12v (grounds to activate relay)
3-----Green/Red----------From Wire #20 of the LCS------------------Grounded when Switched to 'Hold or Tail Lights'
4-----Black/red-----------From 15amp ECU IG------------------------Always 12v to IC
5-----Green/Black---------From #8 wire of Integration Relay----------Always 12v to Wire #2 of LH Retractor Motor
6-----Blue----------------From Integration Relay wire #18------------12v when IC activates (grounded otherwise)
7-----Green/Orange-------From #8 wire of Integration Relay-----------Always 12v to Wire #2 of RH Retractor Motor
8-----Red/Green----------From 30amp RTR Fuse----------------------Always 12v, feeds relay coils of wire #5 and wire #7
9-----Violet/Yellow--------From Wire #1 of Retractor Motors----------Grounded to wire #18 of IR when IC activates
10-----Red/Yellow--------From Headlight Relay-----------------------12v (grounds to wire #18 of IR to activate relay)
11-----Yellow/Blue--------To Theft Deterrent System-----------------12v (Alternately grounds/ungrounds when TD System is active)
12-----??????????----------
13-----Pink---------------From Light Control Switch------------------Grounded when Switched to 'Tail Lights or Head Lights'
14-----Violet/White-------From Light Control Switch------------------Grounded when Switched to 'Head Lights'
15-----Red/Green---------From Door Courtesy Switch-----------------Grounded when Door Switch is Closed
16-----Blue/Yellow--------From Integration Relay wire #18------------12v when IC activates (grounded otherwise)
17-----??????????---------?????????????-----------------------------12v when light switch on 'Head Lights', Dimmer switch on 'Low Beams' and fog lights 'On'
18-----Black/White--------From Ground------------------------------Always Grounded
NOTES:
Wire #17 is NOT present in my '88 Wiring Harness but IS listed in the '89 TSRM - I must assume this is an '89+ feature? Wire #12 is NOT present in my '88 Wiring Harness, and I can NOT find it listed anywhere in the TSRM or TEWD.