Port and polish

Slyqc

New Member
May 14, 2006
17
0
0
47
Chateauguay (Qc.)
Just got back from there right now and it is in bad shape .... :cry: .
So now its a full engine rebuild (3000$) ... im at 5500$ total labour taxes and parts ....
I just dont know anymore.... does that price seem fair to you guys ?
 

Doward

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
4,245
0
36
Alachua, FL
What the hell are they rebuilding it with? Fully forged rods and pistons, with ARP everything throughout?

I'd ask them to itemize what they are wanting to do.
 

bountykilla0118

In Pursuit of 500rwhp
Jul 16, 2005
1,088
0
36
39
Atlanta GA
Slyqc said:
Just got back from there right now and it is in bad shape .... :cry: .
So now its a full engine rebuild (3000$) ... im at 5500$ total labour taxes and parts ....
I just dont know anymore.... does that price seem fair to you guys ?

Hell no for a full engine rebuild 2500 is pushing it........ Now a race motor is different meaning piston, rods, valves, etc. like doward asked
 

Slyqc

New Member
May 14, 2006
17
0
0
47
Chateauguay (Qc.)
Heres the quote .


HKS MHG 200$
ARP Studs 165$
Timing Belt 68$
Water Pump 115$
Full Engine rebuild 3000$ Include new bearings,gaskets,port and polish (head)
Labour 15-20 Hrs X 50$ 750-1000
Total 4548 +Taxes 5231.34 $$$$$
 

bountykilla0118

In Pursuit of 500rwhp
Jul 16, 2005
1,088
0
36
39
Atlanta GA
Slyqc said:
Heres the quote .


HKS MHG 200$
ARP Studs 165$
Timing Belt 68$
Water Pump 115$
Full Engine rebuild 3000$ Include new bearings,gaskets,port and polish (head)
Labour 15-20 Hrs X 50$ 750-1000
Total 4548 +Taxes 5231.34 $$$$$

You are getting rapped with the engine build part .......
If you are getting forged pistons and rods then i can kinda see that price but no not really..... 1200 or so for the forged pistsons and rods but where is the other 1800 coming from??

35 Cleaning
70 Bore & hone
40 Polish crank
80 Bearing
200 Gasket kit (high balling should $150)
200 MHG
165 ARP
115 Water pump (kida high should be like $85)
150 Oil pump
= 1055 + 1200(forged internals)

So in all he is getting $3000 for his labor and a % off of the parts he is supplying.

So basically ..... RIP OFF!!!
 

Junior

New Member
Jul 2, 2006
143
0
0
Ontario, Canada
at $50/hour shop rate, he's allowing himself 50 hours or so for the rebuild. Which does seem a bit excessive to me. But he's warrantying it too, so could well be worth it.
 

bountykilla0118

In Pursuit of 500rwhp
Jul 16, 2005
1,088
0
36
39
Atlanta GA
Junior said:
at $50/hour shop rate, he's allowing himself 50 hours or so for the rebuild. Which does seem a bit excessive to me. But he's warrantying it too, so could well be worth it.

Where did u see that part? Allowing 50hrs for the build ummm i see 15-20 at $50/hr..... If his engine was decent shape when he took it part it should not that be to pricey 1000for his labor is abit steep but i can see that. Have you ever worked in a machine shop or as a mechanic?? $2500-3000 is fair but he is at $5231.34
 

Junior

New Member
Jul 2, 2006
143
0
0
Ontario, Canada
Slyqc said:
Yeah well the labour is only to remove and put back the engine.
The machine shop takes care of the rebuild and thats the 3k.

yea, exactly.

15-20 hours is pretty accurate to pull and swap an engine. Mine took about that, but it was a JDM conversion aswell and I hadn't done it before. I'm sure it could be done quicker if I was doing it again, but that's what I'd estimate flat rate to be at.

3k for a rebuild, figure they'll be into $700-1000 in parts, leaves 2k for labour/warranty. Not the end of the world really.


FWIW, I'd rebuild it myself and drop it in. However it's very possible that I've got more mechanical skills (and tools) than the average guy, and realistically, if you take the tools and learning boo-boo's I made while learning in, $5k for a swap is a goddamned bargain.
 

Halsupramk3

Member
Apr 4, 2005
444
0
16
Mississippi
i ported the head myself and had Swain tech coat the chambers, exhaust ports and exhaust valves. My ross pistons are coated on top with gold coat and skirts with pc 9 slick coating. i mainly cut back the ridge under the valve seats and smoothed out the ports. I did open up the intake some but tried to maintain a constriction in the port. the intake port needs to get a little smaller as it goes to the valve seat to help velocity. air flows faster thru a tube if the exit end is just so smaller than the entrance end. i smoothed up the walls too. the exhaust side is coated the same as the chamber. i probably should have opend up the exhaust side more.

to do the chamber unshrowding i had 2 intake and 2 exhaust valves surface cut just a smidgen. that way my pointed double cut carbide tip could get down in around that sharp edge of the seat in the chambers and i could not cut the valve seat facing by accident. i had each chamber cc ed to calc my compression ratio using additional data.
standard abrasives site is.

http://www.sa-motorsports.com/diyport.aspx


you can see the lip that i cut back with a egg shaped double cut tip in the intake port pic. I did remove some of the casting flash off the sides of the ports too. i did open up the intake ports some at the skinniest part where they start to divide but be careful as this "armpit" area has the thinnest wall to a coolant jacket inside the head. i have cut a junk head up in quarters to see how the jackets flow around the head. the exhaust side ports has the thinnest walls.

the stock intake ports flow about 77 cfm at .1 lift and 176 at .3 lift. my ported intake do 160 cfm at .1 lift and 191 cfm at .3 lift.
the stock exhaust ports flow about 60 cfm at .1 lift and 127 at .3 lift. my exhaust ported ports do 121cfm at .1 lift and 143 cfm at .3 lift. As per my shop that flowed my head. I did not flow my particular head stock but used another source of a stock head flow. I could have done more on the exhaust but i cant now since they are coated. i think the low lift numbers are help out greatly by getting that ridge out from under the valve seat and smoothing out the bowl area.

when porting do one thing at a time. finish the intake side then go to the exhaust side. do that exact thing to that exact area in each of the 6 ports. do the steps systematically. do not do one cylinder completely and move on the next. You want to cut or smooth a small area in a port and then do that step in the next cylinder and move on. I used a T bar of different sizes to check my progress. that way i knew when i had removed the same amount of area on each cylinder. You have to be the same for every cylinder. the T bars will compare the ports at different depths to make sure they are similar. my ports were within 3% of each other on the flow bench. my chambers were within .2 cc of each other. I did not remove much of the shrowding in the chambers but just a little and i did smooth out the chamber especially the sharp edges where the head meets the valve seat. with the cut valves installed you can use a standard abrasives buff wheel to smooth the chambers but be carefull of the edge of the head surface and dont round it off. Standard abrasives has a good port kit and good porting info at their website. there was also good info on to4r.com mk4 website.
 

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Last edited:

Poodles

I play with fire
Jul 22, 2006
16,757
0
0
43
Fort Worth, TX
Nick M said:
Why don't you stop passing along bad advice by ridiculing the correct procedure the shop is doing?

How many other 7M's have to go through a blown headgasket because the repair was not done correctly?

Even without the MHG, the block must be flat, or you will ruin the new gasket in time.

because the screwups I've see aren't headgasket related, but more on the assembly of things (like tearing the valve stem seals on installation, or not setting the tolerances ont eh shims properly)

but because the block was not done, they won't warranty it, which is a crock of shit when it makes no difference in the cases mentioned.
 

Slyqc

New Member
May 14, 2006
17
0
0
47
Chateauguay (Qc.)
Yeah i think its a bit high also ... and its certanly not the kind of money i was expecting.
So mutch other things to do also... when i bought the car everyone seem to say "buy a good body then everything else is nothing" LOL
Its was a dream come true and lots of vision how my car would be in a few years.
Maybe its the end of that dream ... and i should just sell the car for that "Body".
Maybe one day...
Im still soooo confused.
Thx to everyone ... you guys are Great!!!

Sylvain
 

Adjuster

Supramania Contributor
I so wish I'd taken some photos of my head, during the porting and after the coatings etc.

I removed the valve guide and post in the exhaust runners. Smoothed them into nothing. The valves have undercut stems, so there is minimal flow obstruction. On the intakes, I shaped them into vanes with round faces, and tapered backs towards the valve side. (Think airplane wing shapes...) Mostly this is done by removal of material on the sides, then taper the side that goes up into the bowl are at the valve.

Removed all sharp edges like you did at the valve seat/bowl.

I did more smoothing in the combustion chambers. But tried to not remove as much material as possible. Mine are smooth with no sharp edges anywhere, and the valves are unshrouded more too. This does increase the CC size of the chamber, but starting out with 9:1 pistons, I'm not worried about ending up with too low of a static CR. (However, I've never done a compression test to see where it all ended up, but it does have plenty of tourqe at lower engine speeds, so it's not too low.)

I looked at IJ's sectioned head a while back, and tried to keep the bulk of my material removed from the exhaust side towards the head gasket side of the runner. (Except for where I removed the valve guides of course.. :) )

No leaks, so I must have stayed clear of them I hope.

I thermal barrier coated my combustion chambers, the valves and the exhaust runners.
The intake side is thermal dispersant coated as is the rest of the head, and coolant passages.

Looks kinda crappy actually, I applied it with foam brushes, and should have used my air brush to get a better final appearance result, but it seems to work fine. (Air brush was used to coat intake and block, and other stuff, so they turned out looking great..)

Some things to consider about coating your head.
It is sandblasted with aluminum oxide. This is sandpaper without the paper, so any grit you miss, or do not remove, will tear up any close tolerance surface on your engine in short order. There is NO way to keep this grit out of the coolant, oil and other passages in your head. The best you can do is tape up the holes, and don't spray abrasive there as much as possible.

I coated the cam saddles/caps with molydisulfied too. :) (Did not coat the cams however. Waste of time.)

Moly was swabbed down the valve guide bores, but I don't reccomend this unless your machine shop does not mind running their guide reamer down them afterward to restore the proper ID for the guides. Especially if you moly coat the stems on your valves. (I did not, but left them polished smooth.) Only my valves from the cut down area are coated with thermal barrier. (Similar to your piston crown coating from Swain, and what I coated my pistons and combustion chambers with etc.)

Really should have taken some photos. :) Had quite a pile of aluminum shavings when I was done.

Reccomend the following.
Guantlet style gloves.
Old sweatshirt. (To keep the chips from collecting on your arms.)
Welders cap worn under your safety face shield.
Safety shield. Full face, with ratcheting head band, flip down style. (About 15.00 of the best money you'll ever spend if you do any grinding work at all, ever.)
Can of WD40.
Ball, pineapple and point shape wide carbide cutters. (Leaves a nice golfball finish on the runners.. Not sure the perfectly smooth runners are the best way to go, so mine are the way the carbide's left them.. with slight dimples everywhere the alloy was cut.)
Wear long pants. (Chips will stick to your legs like you would not belive, and they are sharp!)
Boots that come up under your pant cuffs. (Again, get chips down in your shoes, and your going to regret it...)

I don't have any flow numbers either. Did not CC my heads.. LOL Should have, but at the time, remember saying "F-it" and moved on.. (It was one of those 3am deals, and you realize that you have been standing there, cutting away at this dang lump of metal for 12 hours or so, straight.. Time for a drink of water! If you can remember how to walk that is.. after standing there for so long..) Oh, some rubber work floor pads make working on concrete possible for those of us who are over 35years old... :)