:1zhelp: Okay, I am getting to the point where I am ready to choose my engine management for my 7M. Because of the custom equal length manifold I built I will not be able to run the MAF. I am have a Super T70, and plan to run 30psi at the track, and about 20psi on the street. I am thinking to buy 720cc injectors, so long story short...I have the parts for huge power, but I am looking for the best/easiest management system. I planned to use emanage ultimate, until I read on this site that its next to impossible to use on the 7M. I really want to be able to tune the thing as I continue to make upgrades and changes to my set up. Help please...oh I am too much of a cheap ass to fork out the big bucks for stand alone:icon_bigg
Opinions on engine management choice...please
- Thread starter PowerTrip Performance
- Start date
I was going to say go Standalone till I got to your last line 
!
At 30 PSI I wouldn't use anything else but it comes down to do you pay now or later
! At 30 PSI I wouldn't use anything else but it comes down to do you pay now or later
This project has gotten very mature and in my opinion has the best tuning software. It is customizable and some very cool features are in the wings. It can do COP, Electronic boost control, nitrous control, IAC stepper control for most common EFI idle control motors , 12x12 tables and so on. The best thing is that you can buy it pre made for about $300-$400 or get it as DIY kit for $250 all up systyem will cost you around 450 - 600 depending on features and accesories you go with. IE wideband kit ect. This is what I will be using.
http://www.megasquirt.info/
http://www.megasquirt.info/
ToyoHabu said:This project has gotten very mature and in my opinion has the best tuning software. It is customizable and some very cool features are in the wings. It can do COP, Electronic boost control, nitrous control, IAC stepper control for most common EFI idle control motors , 12x12 tables and so on. The best thing is that you can buy it pre made for about $300-$400 or get it as DIY kit for $250 all up systyem will cost you around 450 - 600 depending on features and accesories you go with. IE wideband kit ect. This is what I will be using.
http://www.megasquirt.info/
best tuning software???
Umm noo. There is no "best". What there is is what product segment the ECU fits.
For instance, Go download haltech, motec, tec3 and AEM EMS software and muck with it. Compare to megasquirt. They all do the same thing, but some are more granular than others, Some are easy to get to what you need, and some are simplicitic in initial setup. Again all preference.
PowerTrip Performance
Being cheap and going for power, your motor will not last long. You hav been warned.
You're wasting a lot of power by not running a standalone on your setup. The stock ECU is ok with piggybacks at medium power levels but it's deficiencies are quickly apparent at higher boost levels. The said the e-Manage Ultimate won't be that hard to get running and would be your next best choice after standalone. http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17370 read the whole thread
i think your playing with fire trying to run a t70 with all the cookies at 30PSI without stand alone
top guy on 7mpower.com is pushing 730rwhp with piggybacks. sooo..... is it really necessary to run a stand alone?
better safe then sorry at that amount of boost. i would suggest what ever one here is saying and go with stand alone. it may be more money now, but in the end it will be worth it.
Mike
Mike
it'd be fair enough if he just got a medium sized turbo for super cheap and slapped it together.....
but why spend so much getting proper supporting mods and then to not go ahead with an extra bit of security?
i'd hate to see a thread in a few months time saying
'engine blown....not sure why'
but why spend so much getting proper supporting mods and then to not go ahead with an extra bit of security?
i'd hate to see a thread in a few months time saying
'engine blown....not sure why'
excuse me, three out of top five rwhp 7m's on that site running piggybacks. top two running piggybacks. here again, is it really necessary to run a stand alone? my thoughts... no. it's been proven that piggybacks can get the job done.
Can it be done, yes with the proper amount of tuning. But it could be done better with a standalone.
All piggy backs do is modify the signal being sent to the ECU, in effect lying to it. But you are still running on the stock ECU, and it's pre-programmed fuel and timing maps.
Even if you alter the inputs you still have to follow these maps and there limitations. The fact that Will got 730hp out of the ECU on piggy back is a testament to it's flexibility and power. However it is still limited, like stated before by fuel and timing maps.
We use the fuel maps beyond what Toyota designed them for by increasing injector size and unmetered air flow, or modifying the air flow readings. We have done a pretty good job of this, and it's pretty refined by now. Now we run in to the next limitation, timing maps. Ideal timing is critical for big power. The more boost you run the more timing advance you need. The problem is Toyota only programmed the ECU for timing advance up to about 12 psi and from there it goes no further. You can play with this by adjusting base timing, running a higher octane, running a richer mixture. But all these detract from the maximum amount of power you can make.
This is the reason full standalone systems were made. So you can tailor fit the maps to your needs, allowing more control over the engine to run ideal conditions at all times. The stock ECU no matter how many piggy backs you put on it will never be able to do this. You can run the engine to big power on the stock ECU, but it will never be as good as a standalone.
Even Will Neely will admit he could have made more power with the same mods if he had gone stand alone.
Also, the stock ECU, and a stand alone are pure systems. The ECU communicates directly to the engine. No translator or signal modifiers, the signal is clean and pure, not dirtied or slowed down. Another problem with piggybacks is that they create additional failure points. When it’s just the stock ECU or piggyback it’s only one piece of electronic you have to worry about. Is it set right? Is it doing its job? When you start introducing failure points you have to start relying on each point in the chain. Is it doing its job? Is it sending the right information to the next electronic on the chain?
So basically what I’m saying is that yes, the ECU can be used to achieve big numbers. But a stand alone system will do it me efficiently, more reliably, and safer. In the end the money you spent on piggy backs and the hard ware to achieve high horse power could have been better spent on a stand alone system to make even bigger numbers.
All piggy backs do is modify the signal being sent to the ECU, in effect lying to it. But you are still running on the stock ECU, and it's pre-programmed fuel and timing maps.
Even if you alter the inputs you still have to follow these maps and there limitations. The fact that Will got 730hp out of the ECU on piggy back is a testament to it's flexibility and power. However it is still limited, like stated before by fuel and timing maps.
We use the fuel maps beyond what Toyota designed them for by increasing injector size and unmetered air flow, or modifying the air flow readings. We have done a pretty good job of this, and it's pretty refined by now. Now we run in to the next limitation, timing maps. Ideal timing is critical for big power. The more boost you run the more timing advance you need. The problem is Toyota only programmed the ECU for timing advance up to about 12 psi and from there it goes no further. You can play with this by adjusting base timing, running a higher octane, running a richer mixture. But all these detract from the maximum amount of power you can make.
This is the reason full standalone systems were made. So you can tailor fit the maps to your needs, allowing more control over the engine to run ideal conditions at all times. The stock ECU no matter how many piggy backs you put on it will never be able to do this. You can run the engine to big power on the stock ECU, but it will never be as good as a standalone.
Even Will Neely will admit he could have made more power with the same mods if he had gone stand alone.
Also, the stock ECU, and a stand alone are pure systems. The ECU communicates directly to the engine. No translator or signal modifiers, the signal is clean and pure, not dirtied or slowed down. Another problem with piggybacks is that they create additional failure points. When it’s just the stock ECU or piggyback it’s only one piece of electronic you have to worry about. Is it set right? Is it doing its job? When you start introducing failure points you have to start relying on each point in the chain. Is it doing its job? Is it sending the right information to the next electronic on the chain?
So basically what I’m saying is that yes, the ECU can be used to achieve big numbers. But a stand alone system will do it me efficiently, more reliably, and safer. In the end the money you spent on piggy backs and the hard ware to achieve high horse power could have been better spent on a stand alone system to make even bigger numbers.
Ultimate HP on a dyno really isn't a good indicator of performance.
A well tuned standalone will make the same HP if not more and will be as driveable or better than stock not to mention will return MUCH better economy while being driven hard!
It can also be configured to run a lot of the accessories often used on a high HP 7M.
A well tuned standalone will make the same HP if not more and will be as driveable or better than stock not to mention will return MUCH better economy while being driven hard!
It can also be configured to run a lot of the accessories often used on a high HP 7M.
i never said it couldnt be done with a piggy-back.
however for the 'peace of mind' factor along with those stated above, thats why stand alone is a better choice (weather or not you can afford it is a different question)
however for the 'peace of mind' factor along with those stated above, thats why stand alone is a better choice (weather or not you can afford it is a different question)
Suprapowaz!(2) said:
it is not all about power bud
You can make power on a carburated car, but it don't mean that it will drive worth a damn.BTW that top guy, yeah he made the power, want to take a guess how many motors he went through to get to that point? Exactly 6 engines, so in my opinion that was 5 to many engines
Suprapowaz!(2) said:
it wasn't that cut and dry,
Top guy went through 6 engines before he got it "right", but yet with a stand alone and a gpod tune it would have been right from the start.
ok, ok. just trying to make a point. but i see you guys have made your point too. and yeah, i forgot about the 6 engines he went through.
Suprapowaz!(2) said:
I didn't
It would have take one motor to swap over to standalone....$5000 dollars down the proverbial shitter.
IJ. said:At 30 PSI I wouldn't use anything else but it comes down to do you pay now or later
Yup, but the deferred payment plans are always more like a swift kick in the nuts when compared to buying the correct parts up front. :biglaugh: Over the years I've learned to buy 'too much' whenever possible and then grow into it later.