On a budget -7M rebuild or 1jz swap?

[btc2112]

I know this topic has been beaten to death so I apologize in advance but I'd like to pick your guys brains a little bit if you don't mind.

Quick history, I have a 87 turbo 5 speed with 94000 miles that I purchased from a friend about 2 years ago. He was the 2nd owner and says he had Toyota do 2 head gasket jobs while he owned the car, no problems other than the overheating from the bhg's... I replaced rad/rad cap/thermostat and kept up general maintenance(plugs, wires, lube, etc.) and had driven the car gently off and on for about a year and a half now with no real problems until about 2 months ago when it overheated on me, badly, basically cooked on the side of the freeway.:nono:

Long story short, cars now sitting in my parking spot collecting dust. I'm 90% certain that the hg is done again, the head as it was never swapped previously must be warped and when I start thinking about associated costs(machine work, new parts, fixing any damage that may have been done internally) I get the chills. So I'm seriously considering swapping a to a stock... for now :sarcasm:...1jz.

Ok so my main questions are pretty simple, for those of you that have done the swap what should I be looking to spend all said and done? I am aware of the necessary parts I will need to make this work(motor mounts, flywheel, bell housing, etc...) and would like to set a budget of under $5k which would hopefully include all parts, the motor, the labor to pull the old engine and drop in and wire up the stock 1jz. Is this a reasonable figure or am I punching above my weight??? If I am out of my league would a built, reliable 7M be significantly cheaper??
My ultimate goal is a reliable 400rwhp daily driver and I have a feeling that in the long run a single turbo 1jz will be a better platform for achieving it. Plus I can then part out my 7M and recoup some of the costs. That's the way I'm leaning. Is it worth it, can it be done??? I am open to all suggestions, what do you guys think? Thanks for reading!

ps-whatever way I end up going I'll do a rebuild thread with pics to keep you guys up on the progress. I've already started tearing it down...cant wait...:icon_bigg

 

[Poodles]

Headgasket job is MUCH cheaper than an engine swap.

An engine swap will nickel and dime you to death and you'll probably spend more than $5k as 1J's are getting rare in good condition that will drop right in...

Do the headgasket right, fix the cooling system (betcha the radiator was never replaced and it's probably clogged with BHG crap), and drive it another 100K miles...

 

[btc2112]

Headgasket job is MUCH cheaper than an engine swap.

An engine swap will nickel and dime you to death and you'll probably spend more than $5k as 1J's are getting rare in good condition that will drop right in...

Do the headgasket right, fix the cooling system (betcha the radiator was never replaced and it's probably clogged with BHG crap), and drive it another 100K miles...

Ok good points there, thanks for the input Poodles. Though the first thing I did when I got the car was was replace the radiator, rad cap, and thermostat. If I was planning on staying stock I'd be all for the headgasket fix and staying with the 7M but I do have some moderate power gains in mind. With that said, what do you think I'm looking at cost wise to build the 7M to be able to handle up to 400 hp reliably? Am I looking at all new internals? The car is in pretty good shape, never been in the snow, garaged for most of its life, but it is over 20 years old so I know its gonna need new seals(leaking rear main), hoses, vacuum lines, gaskets, etc... and then if I have the motor out of the car I might as well hone the cylinders upgrade the rotating assembly. Seems like it can get pretty expensive either way I go.
My thinking is if I'm gonna cough up a couple grand for machine work and new parts, I might as well upgrade to a more durable motor and start from there. Where do I draw the line though? Definitely something to think about....

 

[Poodles]

Stock internals will handle 400HP daily with ease...

A 1J is going to be just as old, of unknown milage (don't ever believe what they say unless you get the entire front clip), of unknown condition, and could have been sitting in a junkyard in a car for years, or out of a car for the same amount of time.

You'd have to replace all the seals and everything on the 1J as well.

Being on a budget the 7M is going to be the cheapest any way you look at it...

Also, I don't buy into the "more durable motor" comments that people throw around. The JZ motors came with metal head gaskets stock. But the stock twins on the 1J are crap over stock boost, and the ECU's have been known to have issues. All the engines have much the same metallurgy, but there they all have weaknesses.

7M:
-Oil cooling system is pressure based and return the oil to the pan basicly being a controlled bleed, easily upgraded.
-Stock headbolt torque is not sufficent for the style of headgasket, easily fixed and can be upgraded to a MHG.

1J:
-Stock turbos are an overall pain. Pain to replace, don't like to run over stock boost, expensive to repair.
-Caps in ECU leak and fail, repair or replacementis required.

2J:
-Cost
-Requires a lot more wiring work.
-Cost

Another thing of note, it looks like you're in Cali... 1J won't pass smog AT ALL. No EGR, never offered in the states, yadda yadda yadda.

 

[btc2112]

Stock internals will handle 400HP daily with ease...

A 1J is going to be just as old, of unknown milage (don't ever believe what they say unless you get the entire front clip), of unknown condition, and could have been sitting in a junkyard in a car for years, or out of a car for the same amount of time.

You'd have to replace all the seals and everything on the 1J as well.

Being on a budget the 7M is going to be the cheapest any way you look at it...

Also, I don't buy into the "more durable motor" comments that people throw around. The JZ motors came with metal head gaskets stock. But the stock twins on the 1J are crap over stock boost, and the ECU's have been known to have issues. All the engines have much the same metallurgy, but there they all have weaknesses.

7M:
-Oil cooling system is pressure based and return the oil to the pan basicly being a controlled bleed, easily upgraded.
-Stock headbolt torque is not sufficent for the style of headgasket, easily fixed and can be upgraded to a MHG.

1J:
-Stock turbos are an overall pain. Pain to replace, don't like to run over stock boost, expensive to repair.
-Caps in ECU leak and fail, repair or replacementis required.

2J:
-Cost
-Requires a lot more wiring work.
-Cost

Another thing of note, it looks like you're in Cali... 1J won't pass smog AT ALL. No EGR, never offered in the states, yadda yadda yadda.

True, true, true. Ha ha, I was waiting for someone to mention smog. Very good point there. I have someone who can fib it for me now :sarcasm: but in 2 or 4 years time I dont want to have to chase somebody down or cough up a couple hundred bucks just to get a smog cert.

Great points there Poodle, you've talked some sense into me. I kinda had my heart set on the 1jz but given my current situation building the 7M seems much more realistic. I'm just scared about what I'm going to find once I get this head off. The plug galleys for cylinders 5 and 6 were swimming with oil when I last changed plugs and I have visions of coolant in my combustion chamber, warped head, rod knock...etc etc etc. But I'll never know unless I take a look so I'm gonna spend some more time today ripping stuff off, hopefully I can get down to the head and get a good diagnosis. I'll take some pics and post em up here. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the relatively low mileage for this year and the fact that the car had been babied by the previous two owners will mean the damage isn't too bad but we'll see...

On a side note can anybody recommend a good machine shop and mechanic in or around San Diego that has experience with these motors? I am trying to make this my project and would like to do as much of the basic mechanic work as possible but I realize that there are going to be some things like pulling the motor, resurfacing the deck, etc that are not possible for my situation.( I live in an apartment and will be working on this in the back alley) I would lose much less sleep if I knew I had a reliable shop ready to take care of some of the big things for me if needed. :biglaugh:
Also how readily available are heads for the 7M, just in case mine is warped beyond repair?

Thanks again Poodle for the words of reason, given my situation its really a no brainer, 7M all the way...I'll just start a side fund for another project a couple years down the road, my 1jz rebuild...:naughty:
Pics to follow...

 

[JDMMA70]

True, true, true. Ha ha, I was waiting for someone to mention smog. Very good point there. I have someone who can fib it for me now :sarcasm: but in 2 or 4 years time I dont want to have to chase somebody down or cough up a couple hundred bucks just to get a smog cert.

Great points there Poodle, you've talked some sense into me. I kinda had my heart set on the 1jz but given my current situation building the 7M seems much more realistic. I'm just scared about what I'm going to find once I get this head off. The plug galleys for cylinders 5 and 6 were swimming with oil when I last changed plugs and I have visions of coolant in my combustion chamber, warped head, rod knock...etc etc etc. But I'll never know unless I take a look so I'm gonna spend some more time today ripping stuff off, hopefully I can get down to the head and get a good diagnosis. I'll take some pics and post em up here. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the relatively low mileage for this year and the fact that the car had been babied by the previous two owners will mean the damage isn't too bad but we'll see...

On a side note can anybody recommend a good machine shop and mechanic in or around San Diego that has experience with these motors? I am trying to make this my project and would like to do as much of the basic mechanic work as possible but I realize that there are going to be some things like pulling the motor, resurfacing the deck, etc that are not possible for my situation.( I live in an apartment and will be working on this in the back alley) I would lose much less sleep if I knew I had a reliable shop ready to take care of some of the big things for me if needed. :biglaugh:
Also how readily available are heads for the 7M, just in case mine is warped beyond repair?

Thanks again Poodle for the words of reason, given my situation its really a no brainer, 7M all the way...I'll just start a side fund for another project a couple years down the road, my 1jz rebuild...:naughty:
Pics to follow...

They are everywhere. You can use N/A or Turbo Heads just swap the cams to turbo cams.

 

[btc2112]

nice, thank you. btw i've heard that we can use n/a cams in our turbos. do they offer any noticeable performance gains, is it something i should look for?

 

[Poodles]

Moves the torque curve down and chokes the top end. Overall loss of area under the curve, not worth it.

Do you have a TSRM? Haynes manual is...alright, but I chunked mine on a shelf and haven't used it since after it said to torque something until tight.

 

[btc2112]

yep, i have the big ol', grease covered, orange tsrm. haha i had the haynes manual too, total crap. think i used it to clean up puppy turds when i ran out of paper towels.
this is really my first time getting this far into the engine bay. like i said earlier i've changed plugs, wires, stuff like that but no major disassembly so any and all comments/tips are appreciated. i've found dylans how to:head removal 101 and having some pics to reference is a big help, just wish i could take the gf's laptop down to the alley with me. don't think she'd appreciate grease on her monitor...

 

[Orangeracer]

how much would a 2jz cost to put in my 87 turbo targa? jw what others have got invested.

 

[btc2112]

how much would a 2jz cost to put in my 87 turbo targa? jw what others have got invested.

wow... really...??? you're gonna jack my thread like that? :kickinthenuts:

:3d_frown:

 

[JDMMA70]

how much would a 2jz cost to put in my 87 turbo targa? jw what others have got invested.

$10,000,000,000............









No but really probably alittle more than what a 1JZ would cost.

 

[btc2112]

$10,000,000,000............








No but really probably alittle more than what a 1JZ would cost.

hehe...

 

[btc2112]

:sarcasm:
:nono:

 

[black89t]

if your worried about the 7m head supply. i have 2 extra. and 4 extra cams. and i'm sure i'm not the only one either. :rofl:


edit: stick with the 7m. i say if your doing a jz swap. money shouldn't be a option. just go with a big single 2jz. because i my eyes the 1jz swap just isn't worth the hassle for what you get.

 

[btc2112]

if your worried about the 7m head supply. i have 2 extra. and 4 extra cams. and i'm sure i'm not the only one either. :rofl:


edit: stick with the 7m. i say if your doing a jz swap. money shouldn't be a option. just go with a big single 2jz. because i my eyes the 1jz swap just isn't worth the hassle for what you get.

cool, thanks man i'll keep that in mind.

you make a good point there too, i would hate to get stuck in the middle of a 1jz project because i ran out of $$$ :cry:

so after a couple hours of wrenching, sweating, and bleeding i have managed to take a bunch of crap off the top part of the engine. wow! there is a lot of shit in there... i figured it was a lot but had no idea.:aigo::aigo:
it looks like i have just the intake manifold, fuel rail , and some vacuum lines left to go. though we'll see about that.

i do have some ?'s about eliminating some of the rotating mass up front. first has to do with my a/c condenser from the bottom of the motor there. i know there are some pressurized lines and freon scares me, i dont want to end up like terminator 2. any recommendations? whats a safe way to discharge the system, do i really need the special gauge it mentions in the tsrm?

next is the power steering canister and pulley. pros and cons that you guys may have experienced? i will be driving daily so i dont want to lose comfort though i drove a 65 mustang w/out ps for 5+ years and didnt mind too much, only really felt it at slow speeds like in the parking lot. can i expect a similar experience in the supra?

i have attached a couple pics to show you guys what im working with, i'll post more as soon as i upload them. many thanks for any and all help, im definitely learning as i go but feel confident that with the excellent support available here at supramania and some blood, sweat, and tears i can restore my supra to her former glory.

 

[btc2112]

oh, here's a couple of the exterior. nothing fancy, i hope to keep it fairly stock looking as the cops here will ruin your week in a heartbeat if they even think you're a racer.

 

[bountykilla0118]

Hey man you aren’t that far as off as u think....... the 7m look a mess because of how things are routed and wired ...... use something to mark where everything goes and pull the motor. If you send the short block for a stock rebuild with a MHG you will be surprised what $1000-$1500 will give you in terms of performance and reliability.

Prices are give and take, but mostly its take, since parts are pretty cheap however labor isn’t unless its your time and effort …..
MHG -$200
Gasket Kit $200
Piston Rings 70
Oil Pump $150
Rod Bearings- $40
Main Bearings $50
Arp head studs $200
Valves 3 angle w new stems $300
Have block resurfaced $60
Head Resurfaced $60
Injector service $130 +/-

Then up the boost 11psi and you be happy for a little while making 300rwhp (+/-). Save some more money get some 550’s and then you can choose your piggy back. However if you want to make good power go stand alone. But if you stick with the piggy back I prefer the lex afm/SAFC combo along with a AFPR (Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator). Some will disagree and hey its my opinion you could basically just tune for fuel pressure with the lex afm/550’s and a wideband to make 350-400rwhp on the stock ecu with the right turbo, without the SAFC.

This forum is probably one of the best I have seen for actual guidance, its pretty much a full detail walkthrough for everything you could imagine!

Thats my penny with a hole in it.

 

[Doward]

Do not up the boost without replacing the turbo-back exhaust system.

 

[bountykilla0118]

mybad doward ...... i would think that an upgraded intake and exhaust would be the first things people look into, but you never know