Oil Leak @ Head? After BHG job problems...

[AlbanyAng]

Hi All,

It has been some time since my last post. You all have been posting some great advice so keep it up!

I am just finishing up my 1st BHG job after some months of procrastinating.
I have a 86.5 NA and have gotten the vehicle to start and run pretty well - never left the garage yet though as I want to be sure that I have it pretty close to right 1st. In total it has been running 45 minutes (max.).

Here's my problem - I am seeing quite a bit of oil dripping that appears to be orginating where the head meets the block towards the front of the engine. It is difficult to be sure since the timing cover (#2 I think) is blocking a good view. However, peering in behind the alternator on the intake side I can see the oil pooling on top of the lower front end timing gear cover plate. The oil is then running into the timing gear cover plate.

During the rebuild I replaced every possible gasket that came with the overhaul (Toyota) gasket kit. I used ARP head bolts and torqued then tothe recommend 75 ft/lbs. in several passes using the TSRM recommended torquing pattern. So far I haven't seen evidence of oil mixing w/ antifreeze.

FYI - I have had to replace the crank seal twice due to improper installation so that I part of the reason for this dragging out.

Anyway a couple of questions:
a) I am thinking that I should go back in and retorque the head bolts and try again - Wind them out 1st then wind them back in several passes then see what happens. Is this a good idea?

b) If I need to pull the head again can I reuse the HG and for that matter the majority of the new stuff that I just put in since I haven't run for very long?

c) Any other suggestions - Is it possble that I dod not put enough sealant at the front of the block where the the head meets?

Thanks for any help in advance,
Angelo

 

[Obsessionw/Boost]

c) Any other suggestions - Is it possble that I dod not put enough sealant at the front of the block where the the head meets?

That could be your answer

 

[MDCmotorsports]

You didn't use enough seal packing material (FIPG) towards the front of the head.... OR you machined the block without machining the front plate... OR you didn't clean the surfaces enough and the FIPG didn't stick... OR if you installed a MHG one of your rivets is sticking up.....

 

[BLACKCAT]

Did you put in new camshaft seals & install them properly?
You need to put some sealant in four areas around cam bearing #1 otherwise it will leak oil there sooner or later.
I would not disturb the head as I believe your problem is coming from towards the top of the head area.
Take of the cover behind the cam gears clean everything in that area, reassemble, start the engine for a while & then see where the leak is coming from.
Could even be the cam covers are not tight enough.

 

[AlbanyAng]

Did you put in new camshaft seals & install them properly?
You need to put some sealant in four areas around cam bearing #1 otherwise it will leak oil there sooner or later.
Take of the cover behind the cam gears clean everything in that area, reassemble, start the engine for a while & then see where the leak is coming from.
Could even be the cam covers are not tight enough.

Thanks for the input so far...

Just reviewed the TSRM and it does even indicate that one should place packing at the front of the head - I guess I picked up on that from all the posts in these forums. I probably didn't put enough on..

I will check the camshaft seals 1st and go from there - seems easier than going after the entire head 1st.

So can I reuse the HG? or will I need to replace it?

BTW - It is not a MHG

 

[cuel]

No, have to get new HG if you pull the head. I'd put some dye in the oil(you can get it at any parts store), and look for where its coming from.

 

[iwannadie]

Clean around the valve covers and see if its leaking there.

 

[AlbanyAng]

Here's a bit of an update on the leak.

After I ran the engine for about 2 minutes and got a lot of oil flowing out I removed the timing belt, intake & exhaust camshaft timing pulleys then timing belt cover # 2. What I found is what you all have been suggesting - that the likely cause is at the top of the head. I found the back side of the timing gear cover #2 with oil evidence as well as oil pools in the areas in the head wear the timing pulleys are located.

I've attached some pics - hopefully you'll be able to view them


Rear view of timing cover #2


Oil pool at exhaust cam gear.


Oil pool at intake cam gear.


Oil pool in rear timing gear plate.


Oil pool in where head meets block.

Movin' slow on this so stay tuned and please comment!

 

[AJ'S 88NA]

Looks to me like you found the proable cause/causes. Looks like the camshafts seals were leaking. Can't tell from the pics if it was leaking at the head to block area. You didn't say if you had the front plate machined with the block? It also looks like some chips in the area that the cam seals go. That area should be void of any chips in the alum. that might not let the seal do it's job. Did you put some grease on the rubber seals before install?

 

[cuel]

First, something doesn't look right with the 1st cam cap on the exhaust side. It looks like its sticking forward a little? Second, what the hell happened to that intake cam?? The bolt hole is trashed. Did you cross thread it, or leave the bolt loose and it came out with the engine running? Where are the seals that are supposed to be in there? When you took them out, were they hard, or pinched? The trick to putting those seals(or any seals) in, is to push it in evenly. Once you get it snugged in there by hand, work your way around as you gently tap it in a little bit at a time. you should go around 3 or 4 times before you have it set flush.

 

[AJ'S 88NA]

Good eye cuel. It looks like they were put on backwards???

 

[AlbanyAng]

Looks to me like you found the proable cause/causes. Looks like the camshafts seals were leaking. Can't tell from the pics if it was leaking at the head to block area. You didn't say if you had the front plate machined with the block? It also looks like some chips in the area that the cam seals go. That area should be void of any chips in the alum. that might not let the seal do it's job. Did you put some grease on the rubber seals before install?

First, something doesn't look right with the 1st cam cap on the exhaust side. It looks like its sticking forward a little? Second, what the hell happened to that intake cam?? The bolt hole is trashed. Did you cross thread it, or leave the bolt loose and it came out with the engine running? Where are the seals that are supposed to be in there? When you took them out, were they hard, or pinched? The trick to putting those seals(or any seals) in, is to push it in evenly. Once you get it snugged in there by hand, work your way around as you gently tap it in a little bit at a time. you should go around 3 or 4 times before you have it set flush.

Thanks for the responses! You guys are going to need some kleenex cuz your either gonna laugh or cry when you get finished reading this...

a) No, the front timing plate was not machined. The head was not shaved - I had a valve job done and they replaced the exhaust side camshaft as it was bent slightly.

b) I did not notice the nicks near the camshaft gear location. Thanks for pointing it out - what can I do to remove them. Small file? Fine grit sandpaper?

c) Not sure what is going on with the 1st cam cap. While I have this apart I am going to remove the cam caps and cam shaft, insert packing (not done previously), reassemble and check it again.

d) There is nothing wrong with the intake cam bolt hole it is just excessive anti-seize material. I had a hard time getting them loose the 1st time around so I wanted to prevent that from happening again. Got carried away w/ the anti-seize.

e) Now the punch line - I am a real I-D-I-O-T as my kids would say! Seals what seals...DUH! - I never put them in. I don't know how I overlooked it but I did.

These are what you are talking about? Left - back view, Right front view
You say I should put some grease on them prior to install?

I am very sorry for taking up your time with this. I am going to press on and hopefully give an update soon.

Thanks for helping a fool like me. I owe you guys a few drinks!

 

[AJ'S 88NA]

I guess you found out were the oil was RUNNING from. I wish I had this kind of help before I started messing up things on mine. Good luck on the second try.

 

[cuel]

DOH!!!! lol, don't feel bad. You're not gonna do (or not do) anything I haven't done at least once. I see the anti sieze now; not sure if I'd do that, last thing you want is for either of those bolts to back out. Them being a PITA to come out is a good thing What "packing" are you talking about?

 

[IJ.]

Bit of a hint the cam caps have arrows which point forwards......

 

[88YotaTurbo]

Been there and I have done that too man. Dont feel bad. I forgot to install the cam seals when I did a bhg rebuild on me old n/a

 

[88mkIIIproject]

i was wondering from the pics if you had already taken the seals out...but they were never there! it happens...

 

[AJ'S 88NA]

i was wondering from the pics if you had already taken the seals out...but they were never there! it happens...

I wondered the same and wondered how he got them on with the caps backwards.

 

[AlbanyAng]

Well there is some good news!

1st regarding concerns with the cam cap on the exhaust side - what you are seeing is a bit of packing that was not cleaned off prior to reinstalling the cam. Don’t know why the shop didn’t clean it up when they put the head back together. Anyway, I cleaned that up before reassembling everything.

Well thanks to you all my oil leak problem has been taken care of. I removed the cams and gently cleaned up the top surface of the head. I then placed packing on either side (underneath) of the front most cam bearing caps on both the exhaust and intake sides and placed all of the bearing caps in the proper order, orientation and location back on. I then torqued them to spec (14 ft/lbs). I then coated the inside and outside surfaces on the oil seals and carefully installed them making sure they were flush with the housing (head) front surfaces. I then installed the valve covers, timing gear covers, etc and fired her up. I let it run about 5 min. and did not see any evidence of a leak before proceeding - so far so good!

Okay – I put the preceding blurb together about a week ago since I had some other issues and was going to post more questions but hose have been resolved - so here’s an update. I have been driving the Supra since Saturday (10/13) (75 miles so far) and have not seen any evidence of an oil leak so all looks really cool so far! Yes – I have my Supra back after almost 9 months!
Thanks to all.
(I did have some issues in getting the timing straight and I try to detail that in another post.)