Not happy with CT26... Turbo Change (T4?) Questions

[Grandavi]

I have a 60-1 CT26 on my car now (with a lot of other upgrades to accommodate) and am not really impressed with how it runs. The 57 Trim felt a lot peppier on the road and I think that my butt is getting too used to the CT26 pull and now just thinks its normal... lol.

So.. I want to upgrade my turbo.

Any recommendations? I want stability and a nice quick spool, thinking a T4 variant is probably the best mate to a 7MGTE running 550's. I want one that will fit the best into my engine bay without too many modifications. I am assuming it would be best to get a new exhaust manifold to mate with it, and probably to with an external waste gate, although I don't know if that is actually necessary.

I will be running a HKS Fcon Vpro (3.3) and be moving to sequential spark control as well (with 2j coils), but want to get all the parts for the turbo upgrade prior to going stand alone. Also planning on running an innovative (name?) wideband.

Just trying to create my parts list prior to purchasing things and it seems 2j is king when searching for turbos.. 7M is falling by the way side. Information isn't as plentiful.. lol.

In case your not familiar with my car, this is current status:

7MGTE
DM (CXRacing) upgraded intercooler and hardpipes
HKS (Authentic) BOV
Wiseco Forged pistons (0.5 overbore and slightly shaved)
Cometic 1.2 MLS
550 RC Injectors
Lexus AFM
3" Raptor DDP mated to a HKS 3" catback with twintip muffler
60-1 CT 26 Turbo (on stock manifold of course)
HKS EVC-S Boost Controller
AEM UEGO Wideband
AEM AFPR
Denso MKIV Fuel pump (upgraded)
Upgraded Rad (just mentioning) with stock fan
Currently AC disco'd but will be fixing that (want to keep AC)


My goal is to get anywhere from 400-500 rwhp with stability. Not going to track the car or drift.. just a 2000-5000 km per year toy that I love.

Thanks in advance for any input.


Engine bay as it sits currently (not showing BOV in this shot)

 

[IndigoMKII]

Could we get a price range?

When changing out the turbo, you'll have to change out your downpipe as well as add oil drain/feed lines and a 7mgte coolant bypass line.

 

[Grandavi]

Pricewise, I am trying to stay under 2000 for the whole thing. (turbo/manifold/lines, etc... )

I can go a higher if quality is key and I guess I will have to sell my Raptor DDP.. which shouldn't be too hard. (actually should be fairly simple.. lol)

I also intend on keeping the AFM in my setup. (not solid on this, but thinking...)

I am not the kind of person who cheaps out when it comes to quality, but I do like to try to hold to a budget. I am just in a grey area because I never thought I would toss the CT26. If Im going to do 4-5k on a standalone and tune, I may as well have a turbo worthy. Just figuring out what I need and where to get it from.

 

[Enraged]

Why not get it tuned properly before you change more parts? Adjusting timing and fuel will greatly effect how the car drives.

If you move to a T4, you will likely have slower spooling, but more top end power, completely depending on the turbo you choose of course. I'm eventually aiming for 450-500rwhp, and I was looking at the SP 6262, as it spools quickly and can support more hp if desired.

$2k might be tough if you don't do work yourself. SP 6262 ($900) + T4 manifold ($150-300 ebay) + wastegate + downpipe + new/modify intercooler piping.

 

[Grandavi]

I just talked to my mechanic and im thinking your right. Im going to see if I cant get the stand alone installed and tuned with existing setup first, then gauge what I want and give myself a year to get the upgrades assembled.

Definitely still want to go with a T4 though (I think that's the best option for a turbo upgrade on the 7M). My goals are the same as you so I will look at the SP 6262. Where were you looking at sourcing your turbo from?

 

[Enraged]

I'm setting aside money from each paycheck for the 2013 Black Friday sale Last year the turbo was around $150 off. I'd still get it directly from SP even at regular price, as their support is top notch.

Here's the link to the 6262: http://www.spracingonline.com/store/Precision_62mm_CEA_Billet_Turbo_6262/3663

You also might want to look at a smaller turbo, maybe the 5857: http://www.spracingonline.com/store/Precision_58mm_CEA_Billet_Turbo_5857/3689

 

[IndigoMKII]

Don't forget the prices for AN fittings and flanges. SS line isn't cheap either.

I've spent $300 on my hx35, $275 on my manifold, $95 on my wastegate, probably another $200 on lines and fittings then you need to figure in another $200 for a 3" v-band downpipe and have someone fab up new intercooler piping not to mention the gaskets and other little things you might want to do. Such as ceramic coat the manifold/turbine housing/downpipe, get a polished compressor housing or even a T4 turbo blanket.

Also, how is the rest of the car? Will the clutch hold to your new power? Do you have the brakes and suspension to be able to handle the extra power?

Make sure you take your budget, double it and triple the time you're expecting to do it in, then if you're lucky, you'll be within those numbers.

Grandavi, you and I are shooting for basically the same numbers. I want to make sure my oil cooler is assembled first though, not to mention installing a much heavier clutch.

 

[Grandavi]

Yeah, the 200 here and 300 there adds up. My biggest problem is not understanding the routing and all the parts. I know my turbo, but I know it as it sits... my understanding of the wastegate, etc, generally runs to what is there stock. External wastegate configuration is a tad confusing for me, as is how the boost controller functions.

Put it this way.. I am stupider than I should be... lol. All is from reading, but my understanding is about 60% of what would make me happy... but I can still learn... more reading/asking, etc..

As for the clutch, its a Spec 2+ clutch (new). I am fairly certain it will hold up to 500'ish HP although its still the stock flywheel. The brakes and suspension are brand new (HSD Coilovers, Brembo rotors, SS brake lines) but I haven't gone BBK yet because I don't typically travel much at above 150 kph (think that's 100 mph). Normal "distance" cruises are at 130-140 kph.

The oil cooler is new with new lines, but it is still a stock oil cooler. Not sure if that is a concern yet because I am not going to be running 1/4 mile track runs full out.

I am going with a HKS custom vpro fcon 3.3 for 7MGTE (actually has a 7M table and is only one that does, done specially by HKS in Japan). I also have a one-off 7MGTE vpro fcon harness for it. Getting an intake and map sensor harness installed with an HKS intake air temp sensor, a HKS 3 bar map sensor and an innovate wideband installed. To begin with, I think this will set me up quite well. Hoping to get it installed and tuned in July or August (don't want to tune it in winter as I don't drive the car in cooler weather if I can help it). Generally speaking, because I am using RCTS, most of what I use will be HKS related as Reg understands them the best. Plus, to go any "better" would cost far more. I think I will be able to pull this off for just under 5000.00.

Depending on the actual performance of the car afterwards will dictate if I go with a BBK system. The brakes on the car are far superior to anything I have owned so far so I am happy (relative to how I drive).

I still have to look at the front end steering and bushings, but was waiting until the car sat on the HSD's for about 2 months before getting an alignment and going over all the subframe.

The two things I am not as happy as I could be with at this point are the turbo performance and my R154 isn't the smoothest shift from 1st to 2nd (or 3rd to 2nd). The 2nd synchro may be worn. Just prevents me from racing anything off the line... I have to let the revs behave for a 2nd shift... I have done the gears without the clutch and no grinding so it is in good condition (I had a standard with a broken clutch cable for about 1.5 years so I am used to doing that), but its a stiff shift and I wont speed shift unless its 3rd to 4th to prevent any transmission grinds. (and at 3rd to 4th, there's no point in speed shifting... everything happens in 3rd... ).

Driftmotions' 57 trim felt a lot stronger than my current 60-1 trim, but that could be a wastegate issue or something else. Smoke tested the intercooler and everything is tight. Its funny because I will get a spike to 15 psi and then boost controller will cut to 12 psi (my safe point). After that the turbo does a weird thing and seems to fall to 7.2 psi (pressure read at the intake) max. If I turn off the boost controller my max PSI (at the intake) is 5.2, so I think the wastegate actuator has an issue. Will deal with that in about 2 weeks. The car isn't moving right now because of a snowy April...

 

[IndigoMKII]

Smoke testing won't always show a boost leak. Normally, I've seen smoke testers go anywhere from 5-15 PSI whereas you might need to pressurize your pipes to 15-20 PSI to achieve a non-leak situation.

If you weren't in Canada, I would call you and attempt to explain most things to you that you're questioning about.

The external wastegate is similar to an exhaust leak PRE turbo that leaks when you want it to.

For your turbo oil lines, you can buy a -4 oil feed line from driftmotion or assemble your own. You'll want to buy http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ear-9919bfferl/overview/ and http://store.driftmotion.com/static/i-singleturbooilfeedhose.php to feed your turbo.

For your oil drain http://store.driftmotion.com/static/i-oildrainflange7m.php for the block, http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ear-800110erl/overview/ for the bottom of your turbo, http://www.jegs.com/i/Earls/361/303010/10002/-1?parentProductId=749410 your braided line and http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ear-804610erl/overview/ your fitting to the flange on the block. You want your oil drain to be as vertical and straight as possible.

For your external waste gate boost controller hook up. The side port goes to the compressor housing on the turbo, in the middle of that T off. The T goes to your boost controller solenoid which then goes to the top of the external waste gate. Pressure bled off into the top will keep pressure on the spring, causing more resistance thus increasing the PSI.


I don't have my block adapter on hand to double check the feed adapter, please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Grandavi]

Is it best to try to get a turbo that is both water and oil cooled like the CT26 or a simple oil cooled only? Seems like the ball bearing garrets are oil cooled only?

 

[Enraged]

if you want an easier solution, you could also look at the CT-based bolt on turbos like this one from SP: http://www.spracingonline.com/store/Precision_CEA_Billet_87-92_MKIII_Supra_Direct_Bolt-On_Turbo/3143

That would let you keep your IC pipes and downpipe (might need mild modifications).

 

[IndigoMKII]

If it's best to keep it water cooled and oil cooled, I'm sure that the more cooling you can get, the better things will be. This is a mere assumption.

I don't really approve of the bolt on turbos with the stock manifold, it's a way of being cheap about things. The stock manifold doesn't flow that well and offers no way to run an external waste gate for the bigger turbos unless you get the extended adapter which might make space tight.

Making the big jump from ct26 to a t4 is just that, a big jump. Many things need to be changed and tweaked in order to work properly but the benefits greatly outweigh the cons. Changing to a T4 setup gives you so many options on what turbo you want as well as much more room to grow.

 

[Dan_Gyoba]

I shake my head at you...

The 60-1 that you have should pull like mad, more than enough for your stated power goals at the very least. Spend a lot less money figuring out why it isn't, and it'll be better for both your car and your budget.

Suprasport also has the Boss Sr series turbo, which will also let you keep your downpipe and probably IC piping, but really, the turbo that you have should be able to get you to your power goals easily enough.

Edit: Oh yeah. oil cooled turbos are fine, but water cooled is (IMO) better. Oil cooled is easier for more universal application, since for cars that didn't come with, there's only need for the one set of plumbing. Water cooled means more work for applications which didn't come with everything.

If you go with oil cooled, then a cool-down period is much more necessary. Water puts a much lower limit on temperature, which reduces the possibility of oil coking in the bearings. Also, while in cool-down, what you've got from the oil pump is basically idle flow/pressure. (Same for the water pump, I suppose, but like I said, water is much more effective for cooling.) Given the option, I would personally always choose water cooled.

 

[IndigoMKII]

Edit: Oh yeah. oil cooled turbos are fine, but water cooled is (IMO) better. Oil cooled is easier for more universal application, since for cars that didn't come with, there's only need for the one set of plumbing. Water cooled means more work for applications which didn't come with everything.

If you go with oil cooled, then a cool-down period is much more necessary. Water puts a much lower limit on temperature, which reduces the possibility of oil coking in the bearings. Also, while in cool-down, what you've got from the oil pump is basically idle flow/pressure. (Same for the water pump, I suppose, but like I said, water is much more effective for cooling.) Given the option, I would personally always choose water cooled.

I've heard that with the newer syn oils, a cool down period isn't really needed unless you're boosting hard and instantly shut it off.

 

[Grandavi]

I do have a turbo timer on the car for when I do runs. I set it for 2 min and if I haven't ran hard, I just hit the power button to cut it off manually, otherwise it sits and shuts itself off.

Thinking that to upgrade the turbo I should go with the T4 anyway. I think I better get this turbo (the 60-1) looked at, because I think that the wastegate actuator is what is causing the trouble. The problem with this turbo is its the one item I put on the car that isn't new. So.. I am trusting that the previous owner hadn't done something odd to it or that it isn't malfunctioning.. when I cant really tell. It looked fine, but compared to the 57 Trim I had on it.. its very weak. The 57 used to hit hard and pull like crazy, this one ramps up quick and drops off.

I have committed to going stand alone first, so will diagnose the turbo first. Not quite sure how to test the waste gate correctly.

 

[IndigoMKII]

Are you sure that it's a 60-1? Measure the inside of it.

 

[Grandavi]

I did prior to installing it. It wasn't too bad until I put the upgraded intercooler on. That's when the pressure drop occurred. The shop has gone over the install and there are no leaks. Pressure never changed when I added the HKS BOV and removed the stock BOV either. If I run with no boost controller I am hitting a maximum of roughly 6 psi at the manifold. With the boost controller functioning the turbo will spike up to about 12-14 psi and then drop to roughly 7.2 psi max. Quick spool but not holding much at the top end.

During the dyno run (which failed due to a signal issue from the tach) you could see it flutter off, plus it was pushing blue out the tail pipe. Dropped the fuel pressure to 25 psi at the AFPR and the blue smoking issue stopped so we are thinking that it was getting so rich it was washing the cylinder walls with fuel and just burning the oil. Right now the wideband is showing me 15.3 at idle and 14.3-15.3 at cruise. Full boost will drop it to 11.2'ish. So at the very least I am not leaning out. The thought is that the Denso MKIV fuel pump I installed wasn't necessary with the 550's and how I run. I could have supplied the fuel properly with the stock fuel pump.

Of course.. all this will change in the next couple months once I go stand alone.

 

[Suprapowaz!(2)]

I second Dan_Gyoba, you have what you need to meet your power goals. If you're willing to drop $2000 on a T4 turbo set up why go standalone and tune the shit out of what you have? I swear there was someone on here selling an AEM EMS 89+ V1 for $900. For some reason I can't find the ad. Here it is http://www.supramania.com/forums/sh...TT-Wheels-and-AEM-EMS-30-1130-for-89-92-7MGTE .

There's this guy selling his MS2 for $400. http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?175489-7m-performance-parts-all-bnib

Good thing is you're not busting your wallet & you can tune your current setup and get the power you're looking for. If you still have the itch for a T4 set up at least you'll have the means to tune that too.

If I could do it all over again I would have stayed with the factory manifold, upgraded CT26, and tuned like mad for it. I'll be happy with mid 400's to the wheels myself.

 

[IndigoMKII]

Isn't 450 rwhp a bit high for a 60-1 ct26?

 

[Suprapowaz!(2)]

A 60-1 in an S cover is rated roughly around 61 lb/min. That's roughly 600 crank hp. I know that wheel in the CT26 housing will flow less, but it should get him at least low to mid 400whp.