New engine. What happened?!

D

drostar

New Member
Apr 24, 2005
60
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SK
I hoping I can get a few ideas here as to what is wrong. Here is my story:

Yesterday I finally got my rebuild ready to fire up. It was turning over but wasn't starting. After checking my codes I had a 51 and a 41... TPS. I adjusted my TPS, cleared my codes, and tried again. VAROOM! :biglaugh: Started up instantly and sounded sooooo nice! I was about to set the timing (which was at ~22 degrees) but I noticed a decent sized oil leak so I cut the engine to fix the leak. I left car for the night and today I go to start it up to again. Crank crank crank but no start. I moved the CPS a little clockwise to retard the timing. Crank crank crank but no start. Sometimes it would almost catch, cough, whatever you want to call it. I noticed on my boost gauge that when it sputtered, the pressure would spike bigtime!! like maxing out my 30 psi gauge :aigo:..... That can't be good.

I didn't know what the hell was wrong. I didn't change anything from the night before when the engine was just purring. The engine was cranking slower at this point so got a spare battery connected to boost it. After a bit a cranking this time, the car sputtered and started. But now it is running very rough, barely idling at ~400rpm. :(

I tried to set the timing as best I could but it was wavering pretty bad. I pulled the jumper from the diag box and it jumped the timing up to about 13-14 degrees as it is supposed to.

I didn't know what else to do so I just cut the engine. I checked the engine codes again but there are none. I double checked the TPS and it hits the IDL contact where it is supposed to. I hooked up a compressor to the intake to pressurize it, to see if I blew anything apart with the boost spikes and for the most part everything sounds sealed... .EXCEPT... somewhere on the intake side or near the rear, I can hear a leak. I can't pinpoint the source of the sound (any tips?). Not sure if it is an actual leak or just air getting past the valves in the engine but the scary part is that there is a gurgling sound accompanied with the air sound. Please tell me this is somehow normal. :1zhelp:

I want to try avoid running it until it is ready to get on the highway to set the rings. Any ideas?

I just realized this is a long post soooo
CLIFF NOTES:
- New rebuild. After fixing TPS code, engine fires up and sounds NICE at 22 degress.
- Next day, after changing nothing except fixing oil leak, engine won't start. Notice major boost spikes while sputtering during cranking.
- Eventually get it to start after boosting with another battery, but now runs like crap!
- Now have a weird air leak noise with a gurgle to it.
 
grimreaper

grimreaper

New Member
Jul 2, 2008
2,180
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Dallas
set the engine at tdc per crank pulley and leak test, that way the valves are closed so no air leak. I cant see that causing this though. is the cps possibly set 180 deg. out?
 
D

drostar

New Member
Apr 24, 2005
60
0
0
SK
Thanks for the tips. I will do the air pressure test again tomorrow following those suggestions.

I don't think the CPS would be 180 degrees off. I followed the TSRM to a T in setting it. Plus I don't see how it would run so well the first time if it was 180 deg off.

I'm kind of thinking/hoping it could still be a bad TPS because I had code 41 (open or short TPS) which I guess I never did narrow down - it just went away, unless a missing IDL signal can cause both 51 and 41. After I set the TPS and made sure it was good, I didn't touch the throttle, and that's when it ran good. But afterwards when the engine was off, I was playing with the throttle a bit. Maybe the TPS just happened to land in a good spot when I first started it up, and now it's bunged up again. So in conclusion, I will test the TPS again tomorrow as well, but this time I'll test it at the ECU connector.
 
D

drostar

New Member
Apr 24, 2005
60
0
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SK
Today I tried a few more things. I checked the TPS at the ECU connector and everything read well within spec. I hit the throttle a few times (with the car off) and while watching the readings and it behaved as expected. So, probably not TPS. Is it worth it to try disconnect the TPS and see if it idles? I read somewhere on this forum where a guy was having a rough idle and disconnecting the TPS helped - he ended up getting a new TPS.

I set the engine to TDC and pressurized the intake again. Also this time, I disconnected the top PVC line that connects to the valve covers because I thought that might be whats gurgling. I also took the rad cap off the watch for bubbles. This time, no gurgling and no air sounds from within the engine and no bubbles from the radiator. That's promising.

I did find a very small air leak at the IC hose where it hooks up to the turbo. Tighten that up and that was fixed. But it was so small I doubt it would have caused the engine to run so rough.

So back to square one. I didn't try start it up again tonight. I will try tomorrow though.

Is there anything that might sometimes turn on that could cause a problem like this? For example, like the cold start injector? Could a bad CSI or CSI time switch cause this? Or maybe some kind of relay?
 
N

Neal

New Member
Jun 15, 2007
83
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0
Melbourne
First start you should always have radiator cap off...you dont want to presurise the system before the gaskits seal properly for the first time...
Pull your spark plug have a sniff ..
regap your plugs..
You should be able to start your car with the 3000 pipe off just make sure you block the hose that goes to the Idle control valve.

Make sure your temperature and oil presure gage are connected correctly.
Guggling noise could be air trapped in your system..
 
C

cruisnhard

SM Member
Sep 27, 2007
236
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0
40
Waupun, Wisconsin
I had the distributor 180 degrees out in my na and it would purr until I would push the gas. If I retarted the timing enough it would be ok and not start all the time. I pulled the dist and put it back 180 and it started and ran great. This is just an experience I though would help.
 
A

AJ'S 88NA

New Member
Jul 26, 2007
2,419
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Florida
Or the timing belt not installed right. Did you turn the motor over a couple of times when you installed the timing belt by hand and check the marks again?
 
D

drostar

New Member
Apr 24, 2005
60
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0
SK
Thanks for all the input everyone.

Going with the ignition theme, I set the engine to TDC per the TSRM (IG-21) and looked at my CPS. It looks about the same as what is in this thread but mine is advanced 10 degrees already. Here is a picture of what mine looks like:
p1157106_1.jpg


That is correct (ie not 180 deg off), right? I double checked that my plug wires were plugged into the coil pack in the right order (1-6-3-4-2-5, left to right).

So I decided to check my coil pack and igniter. I followed the TSRM inspection procedures (IG-12 and IG-15). My coil pack checked out fine but my igniter wasn't behaving the way the TSRM said it should. The TSRM states that as voltage is applied it should cause momentary continuity but I found that it was when I removed the voltage that continuity appeared. That seems a little too odd. I don't know, maybe I was just doing it wrong or doing it too slow? I called around to the auto wreckers here and they don't have an igniter for me, so I will probably try find one on here or ebay as a spare to try out. I haven't tried the "Spark Test" yet (IG-11) so I will give that one a try as well, to see if spark is happening consistently.

The oil leak was near the oil cooler so oil would not have gotten on the timing belt. The timing belt was installed by the shop that rebuilt my engine so I would hope that they did it properly. They are supposed to be a decent shop (best one in Saskatoon here, anyway). I would check the timing belt but it seems I have to take off the upper rad hose to get the timing cover off and I don't wanna lose my coolant so I think I will try a couple other things first.

I've been thinking, could it be a stuck valve? Perhaps while it sat overnight, a valve seized open? I will do a compression check tomorrow and while the spark plugs are out I'll check the gaps too.
 
92TealSupra

92TealSupra

Supramania's Parts Man
Sep 2, 2008
1,584
0
36
Great Lakes State
30 Psi is impossible at start up, maybe a high idle but there is no way at 1700 RPMS your gauges could be reading 30 Psi , lets hope this is vacuum here! then you're in the right game, but your timign is set ( way to retarded ).

Check TSRM for specs if you do not quite know it exactly.
 
D

drostar

New Member
Apr 24, 2005
60
0
0
SK
I went though all my cylinders - all compression is okay, all are sparking, all gaps are 0.8mm. So there goes my valve theory. I still don't know about that igniter.

So is there a way to tell if my timing is 180 deg off?
 
D

drostar

New Member
Apr 24, 2005
60
0
0
SK
Ok, I will do that.

So if when I take the cover off, the marks on the cam gears match up with the notches at the top, and my CPS is as shown in the picture, then my timing is correct?
 
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D

drostar

New Member
Apr 24, 2005
60
0
0
SK
It RUNS!!! But I'm not sure why.

I lined up the cam marks, checked the CPS and it was positioned the same as the picture above (so it was always set correctly). Running out of ideas, I unplugged my cold start injector (or actually, just left it disconnected from when I did the spark test) and did the ground mod for my igniter. So not much different. I would have disconnected and reconnected several electrical connections during this time so maybe one was loose.

So I'm not too confident the problem is gone for good. We'll see if it starts again tomorrow.
 
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