Need serious help--car stranded!

Supraman

New Member
Mar 30, 2005
64
0
0
Sunnyvale
Sorry for the double post--the below is on SF, but the issue is still an enigma despite about 50 people viewing the thread. I apologize for the length, but please help!

Hey everybody. I have an 88T that is acting insanely strange. Tonight, I drove 15 miles or so to a movie theater (meeting a friend), and the car performed just great during that trip. When I parked, I let it idle as always. No problems whatsoever. A little over two hours later, I go out and try to start the car. It starts, full ignition and everything, but dies after two seconds or so. At first, I thought "no problem, just some heat soak." Nope. Start it again, give it a good rev; the car dies in the same amount of time, revving notwithstanding. For the time it runs, either idling or revving, it seems to perform just fine. Then it seems as though ignition or fuel just completely disappears. I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT COULD CAUSE THIS. There are no engine codes, and resetting the computer by pulling the EFI fuse didn't change a thing. Unplugging my E-Manage, which is currently zeroed out anyway, and jumpering the AFM KV sensor wire didn't change a thing. I logged a bit of data on the E-Manage, and noticed something strang, but it doesn't explain the problem. I'll post the graph soon, but basically when I start my rev, the KV signal falls through the floor. Then the rev stops, because the engine is stalling (apparently), and the KV signal goes back up--but the RPMs keep dropping, and the AFM follows it to the death. That rev was to about 3700 or so. I tried another to about 1600, and it showed a similar story, but in a slightly different way and obviously on a more compressed scale.

I left something in the car that I need to get the graphs off of this crappy PC laptop, so for now I'll just post a few numbers about the shape of the graph. I'll only talk about the higher rev for now.

The graph looks acceptable for slightly over one second time elapsed. Then, at 2887RPM with a KV reading of 357Hz, the KV starts dropping pretty fast as the revs keep climbing. A fifth of a second later, the revs reach their peak while the KV hits its minimum: 3682RPM at 145Hz. Here, the graphs stay pretty constant for another fifth of a second: the KV immediately levels off, and then starts a very gradual climb, and the story is basically opposite for the RPM. RPM keeps dropping until 2450RPM and 350Hz, which it maintains for a bit over a tenth of a second, and proceeds a comparitively slow death. It takes almost two more seconds for the RPMs to go all the way to zero, which is displayed as a linear decline of RPM and KV. KV hits zero about four fifths of a second before the engine totally dies.

This is damn perplexing to me. I might lable it a bad post-turbo/AFM leak if the car actually idled, but died on a rev. The most unusual part about it is that the car was running flawlessly beforehand. I'm pretty sure it's not heat soak, because I tried starting it many times before calling my sister at 1AM, and revving worked well until the car totally quit.

Please advise!!! Thank any soul with a comment! My modifications are in the image below:
SupraSpecifications.gif
 

smagnotta

SuprSal
Apr 5, 2005
202
0
0
WashPa
Well a similar situation happened to me and it ended up being the S-AFC was initialized for whatever reason and it wasn't set to KARMAN. But then it threw the AFM error code and I knew what it was.

I know you have the AEM manage and you unplugged it but could a similar thing be happening to you?

What about the CPS? Could the wiring be faulty to it?

Any error codes being thrown?
 

Supraman

New Member
Mar 30, 2005
64
0
0
Sunnyvale
I've got the Greddy E-Manage, and as I mentioned, I tried unplugging it and jumpering the AFM KV wire. It did exactly the same thing in the same amount of time, so I just plugged it back in. The CPS has given me trouble before, but in my experience, one of the symptoms is a dead tachometer. Normally, during cranking, the tachometer will move--with the CPS dead, there is no movement of the tachometer. Futhermore, we have good ignition--once, I revved all the way to 5K RPM and it sounded alright.

I got a ride for the 15-20 miles to the car, and tried some things. First, with the engine cold, it had a bit of trouble starting--completely normal, because the cold start injector has been blocked off. Then it did the identical thing it's been doing all along. I unplugged the AFM--identical result. Checked the air intake temperature sensor--fine. Manually grounded E1, E2, and the intake manifold--same problem each time. I don't know what else to try. The ONLY possibility I can think of is the ECU being bad, but I need someone's help on what normally happens. Do ECUs just die from sitting in a parking lot for two hours? Can the car start at all, like mine does, without the ECU? Please advise! Thanks again!
 

Supraman

New Member
Mar 30, 2005
64
0
0
Sunnyvale
Also, no error codes; it did throw 24 and 31 when I unplugged the AFM, as it should have. With that plugged in, nothing.

Another potentially related thing: earlier that day, my turn signals stopped working. I had been messing around with the fuses in the driver's side kickpanel, and had pulled what I thought was the fog light fuse to check it. It seemed good, but I didn't put it back. So when I took a drive later that day, I thought the fuse was for the turn signals, because they didn't work. However, that night, when leaving for the theater, I noticed my dash illumination lights didn't work. Put the fuse back in, and they worked--but the turn signals did not. The car stalled after I had left the house and gone a short distance, but I chalked this up to the fact that I had been messing around with the idle that day as well. By the time the car had warmed up, the idle was smooth and strong at about 700RPM. I even turned off the car at my friend's house before proceeding to the theater, and it started again with zero problems. Does anyone here know about the turn signal system? I hope to save my car from the parking lot ASAP, but before I make a third attempt, I need some things to try. Thanks everyone
 

Supraman

New Member
Mar 30, 2005
64
0
0
Sunnyvale
Here are some screenshots of the data I collected. I just don't know.

Car started and left to its own devices, next day:
idle2.JPG


Car started and given a little bit of throttle, that night:
idle.JPG


Car started and given considerable throttle, that night:
37Krev.JPG


Car started and give lots o' throttle, next day:
5Krev.JPG


Ideas? Would a dead ECU allow the car to run at all?
 

smagnotta

SuprSal
Apr 5, 2005
202
0
0
WashPa
Since you posted this elsewhere what is the status of your issues?

Here are some things I would do.

Did you do the following easy check yet:

Check every fuse:
1- The fuse box in the engine bay
2- The driver's side kick panel fuses
3- The passenger side kick panel fuses

Did you try to swap out your ECU and try a different one?

I don't think this turn signal problem has to do with your main root problem. Could that problem be your interior wiring harness (some kind of electrical problem of course).

You might have this posted but do you have a timing light where you can check what your timing is?

Did you try taking out the EFI fuse in the main engine fuse box and let the ECU re-learn?

I have had strange issues like this one. You really need to take a multimeter and start testing all engine components. Eliminate one system after the other with a multimeter - it takes a lot of time and patience. Another way is to take a working part off a friend's car and install it in your car for testing purposes.

Another thing to check is if everything is grounded OK. An example is the coil pack post ground wire. There is a ground wire on the coil pack post that can become easily damaged. This is just an example from the top of my head as this only causes a missing problem - you get the idea.

I'm surprised no one has responded to this thread in this forum - must be because of the holiday...
 

Supraman

New Member
Mar 30, 2005
64
0
0
Sunnyvale
smagnotta, thanks for your reply. I've really been thinking the problem was related to electrical grounds or connections, so I did a lot of checking around. E1, E01, and E02 grounds seem good (0.2-0.4 ohms) at the check connector, AFM, and ECU harness. However, I didn't know anything about this coil pack ground wire, which someone recently mentioned on Supraforums. I had entirely removed the coil pack for inspection, and certainly don't recall disconnecting a ground wire. At this point, it would seem that is the problem. I will certainly check it out as soon as I get back to the car. Another possibililty seems to be the ECU, but I do not have a spare; the closest I have is rather far off from an '88 manual Turbo--'92 automatic N/A.

Long story short, I went back to the car for a third messing around, and finally had it towed to a mechanic's place closer to home. I obviously prefer to avoid having their place work on it, but it's what I'll have to do if the coil pack ground is not the solution. It was also discovered that by wildly modulating the throttle rather than a semi-constant rev, the engine can be kept alive for longer in a very rough and certainly highly unstable state. This leads me to believe the TPS might be at fault, but I do not know the role of the TPS during idle, and obviously it does not run at idle either.

Anyway, again, thank you--it's truly impressive and reassuring that Supra owners have this community to fall back on in times of need. I'll post the result of my next fiddling session when I get back.
 

Supraman

New Member
Mar 30, 2005
64
0
0
Sunnyvale
This one's verbetim from SupraForums:

Well, this is pretty crushing. None of that worked.

The coil pack ground was indeed broken--just a screw with a broken ring terminal underneath it. I couldn't get the screw off, but I also couldn't find the actual wire that goes to the head (though I did find a place where it probably should have/could have been attached). I checked and found that the base of the coil pack was not grounded. I wired up a ground, and checked the base--now grounded. The car did the same thing anyway. I messed around with it and got what should have been a very good connection, going directly to the battery too. Thinking about it now, I don't know why the coil pack needs a ground--the TSRM specifically calls that the coils not be grounded (obviously), and never mentions a single thing about checking the ground wire or it actually existing, so I don't really know the purpose of the grounding. Some more information here would help, but again, it didn't solve the problem... I also checked the coil packs themselves, and as should be the case, they were not grounded out. The TSRM calls for a resistance between 0.3 and 0.5 ohms, but my coils measured between 0.6 and 0.8. They are old, and may be going out, but I'm sure this is not the problem.

I checked both the TPS and the ISC, and both passed every specification test that the TSRM called for. Both connectors looked to be in very good shape, too. After this incredible disappointment, I knew that the ignition system was probably OK; air induction hadn't been messed with, and should allow the car to idle anyway (especially with the AFM unplugged), so that was probably OK too. Nothing had messed with the timing. I thought one of the only things that remains would be fuel, possibly the ECU's regulation of it going haywire. However, I knew that the ECU grounds were good (checked at harness); also, I had just cleaned and retorqued the ECU ground harness under the intake mani. Fuel...injectors? Inspection revealed something I thought must have been the problem--a close look showed that one of the wires on the #6 injector was stripped a little bit, and in contact with part of the metal fitting of the fuel rail. THIS MUST BE IT, I thought, in private triumph. No, it wasn't. Correcting that did nothing. Perhaps it was the ground side of the injector anyway.

One of the first things I checked was the fuel pressure, and a general overlook of the fuel system. Everything checked out, and the fuel pressure is actually rather high at something ilke 44PSI with the pump jumpered. 550CC injectors.

I've turned the car over to the mechanic, but any suggestions are still requested. This problem is quite maddening, not only because of how elusive it seems to be, but because it occurred from the car sitting in a parking lot--stationary--for two hours.

Once again, thanks everyone for all your help...if the mechanic can even figure it out, I'll be sure to post the final cause here...
 

Boostedstr8six

I have better SA than you
Mar 30, 2005
401
0
16
Near Columbia, the river
Wow, pretty relentless problem....

How do you have your fuel pump wired up? If you still have it using the resistor pack, try disconnecting the resistor pack and jumping the pump wiring so it has constant 12V. Pretty much a shot in the dark.....you've gone through a lot of different checks already. Good luck.
 

Supraman

New Member
Mar 30, 2005
64
0
0
Sunnyvale
Thanks for the advice; I just thought of it myself to jumper the pump and try to start it, rather than just observing pressure during that check. I was going through the Toyota tech articles on the fuel system, and found that the ECU can shut off the pump if it does not have an RPM signal. Even without codes being thrown, maybe it's malfuctioning and turning it off anyway. I'll check that later today...before the vandals get to my baby :nono: