Money, the root of all?

Supracentral

Active Member
Mar 30, 2005
10,542
10
36
In light of the direction some of the other threads have taken around here, I'd like to dig into people's core beliefs about money & capitalisim on this forum. One of the neat things about Supramania is we seem to have a VERY diverse socio-economic mix of people.

However, I've seen points of view from Supra owners that suprise me on occasion.

Back in 1957, Any Rand published the book Atlas Shrugged. It's one of the longest novels ever written and would take years to discuss in whole, but there are a couple of pages about money that I'd like to read and discuss today.

If you are not willing to at least read the following quote, please just stay out of the thread. If you haven't read and comprehended (but not necessarily agreed with) the following, you don't have the necessary frame of reference to participate.

Ayn Rand in the 1957 pubication said:
So you think that money is the root of all evil? Have you ever asked what is the root of money? Money is a tool of exchange, which can’t exist unless there are goods produced and men able to produce them. Money is the material shape of the principle that men who wish to deal with one another must deal by trade and give value for value. Money is not the tool of the moochers, who claim your product by tears, or of the looters, who take it from you by force. Money is made possible only by the men who produce. Is this what you consider evil?

When you accept money as payment for our effort, you do so only on the conviction that you will exchange it for the product of the effort of others. It is not the moochers or the looters who give value to money. Not an ocean of tears nor all the guns in the world can transform those pieces of paper in your wallet into the bread you will need to survive tomorrow. Those pieces of paper, which should have been gold, are a token of honor - your claim upon the energy of the men who produce. Your wallet is your statement of hope that somewhere in the world around you there are men who will not default on that moral principle which is the root of money. Is this what you consider evil?

Have you ever looked for the root of production? Take a look at an electric generator and dare tell yourself that it was created by the muscular effort of unthinking brutes. Try to grow a seed of wheat without the knowledge left to you by men who had to discover it for the first time. Try to obtain your food by means of nothing but physical motions - and you’ll learn that man’s mind is the root of all the goods produced and of all the wealth that has ever existed on earth.

But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak? What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or muscles. Wealth is the product of man’s capacity to think. Then is money made by the man who invents a motor at the expense of those who did not invent it? Is money made by the intelligent at the expense of the fools? By the able at the expense of the incompetent? By the ambitious at the expense of the lazy? Money is made - before it can be looted or mooched - made by the effort of every honest man, each to the extent of his ability. An honest man is one who knows that he can’t consume more than he has produce.

To trade by means of money is the code of the men of good will. Money rests on the axiom that every man is the owner of his mind and his effort. Money allows no power to prescribe the value of your effort except the voluntary choice of the man who is willing to trade you his effort in return. Money permits you to obtain for your goods and your labor that which they are worth to the men who buy them, but no more. Money permits no deals except those to mutual benefit by the unforced judgment of the traders. Money demands of you the recognition that men must work for their own benefit, not for their own injury, for their gain, not their loss - the recognition that they are not beasts of burden, born to carry the weight of your misery - that you must offer them values, not wounds - that the common bond among men is not the exchange of suffering, but the exchange of goods. Money demands that you sell, not your weakness to men’s stupidity, but your talent to their reason; it demands that you buy, not the shoddiest they offer, but the best that your money can find. And when men live by trade - with reason, not force, as their final arbiter - it is the best product that wins, the best performance, the man of best judgment and highest ability - and the degree of a man’s productiveness is the degree of his reward. This is the code of existence whose tool and symbol is money. Is this what you consider evil?

But money is only a tool. It will take you wherever you wish, but it will not replace you as the driver. It will give you the means for the satisfaction of your desires, but it will not provide you with desires. Money is the scourge of the men who attempt to reverse the law of causality - the men who seek to replace the mind by seizing the products of the mind.

Money will not purchase happiness for the man who has no concept of what he wants: money will not give him a code of values, if he’s evaded the knowledge of what to value, and it will not provide him with a purpose, if he’s evaded the choice of what to seek. Money will not buy intelligence for the fool, or admiration for the coward, or respect for the incompetent. The man who attempts to purchase the brains of his superiors to serve him, with his money replacing his judgment, ends up becoming the victim of his inferiors. The men of intelligence desert him, but the cheats and the frauds come flocking to him, drawn by a law which he has not discovered: that no man may be smaller than his money. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

Only the man who does not need it, is fit to inherit wealth - the man who would make his own fortune no matter where he started. If an heir is equal to his money, it serves him; if not, it destroys him. But you look on and you cry that money corrupted him. Did it? Or did he corrupt his money? Do not envy a worthless heir: his wealth is not yours and you would have done no better with it. Do not think that it should have been distributed among you; loading the world with fifty parasites instead of one, would not bring back the dead virtue which was the fortune. Money is a living power that dies without its root. Money will not serve the mind that cannot match it. Is this the reason why you call it evil?

Money is your means of survival. The verdict you pronounce upon the source of your livelihood is the verdict you pronounce upon your life. If the source is corrupt, you have damned your own existence. Did you get your money by fraud? By pandering to men’s vices or men’s stupidity? By catering to fools, in the hope of getting more than your ability deserves? By lowering your standards? By doing work you despise for purchasers you scorn? If so, then your money will not give you a moment’s or a penny’s worth of joy. Then all the things you buy will become, not a tribute to you, but a reproach; not an achievement, but a reminder of shame. Then you’ll scream that money is evil. Evil, because it would not pinch-hit for your self-respect? Evil, because it would not let you enjoy your depravity? Is this the root of your hatred of money?

Money will always remain an effect and refuse to replace you as the cause. Money is the product of virtue, but it will not give you virtue and it will not redeem your vices. Money will not give you the unearned, neither in matter nor in spirit. Is this the root of your hatred of money?

Or did you say it’s the love or money that’s the root of all evil? To love a thing is to know and love its nature. To love money is to know and love the fact that money is the creation of the best power within you, and your passkey to trade your effort for the effort of the best among men. It’s the person who would sell his soul for a nickel, who is loudest in proclaiming his hatred of money - and he has good reason to hate it. The lovers of money are willing to work for it. They know they are able to deserve it.

Let me give you a tip on a clue to men’s characters: the man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it.

Run for your life from any man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper’s bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another - their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun.

But money demands of you the highest virtues, if you wish to make it or to keep it. Men who have no courage, pride or self-esteem, men who have no moral sense of their right to their money and are not willing to defend it as they defend their life, men who apologize for being rich - will not remain rich for long. They are the natural bait for the swarms of looters that stay under rocks for centuries, but come crawling out at the first smell of a man who begs to be forgiven for the guilt of owning wealth. They will hasten to relieve him of the guilt - and of his life, as he deserves.

Then you will see the rise of the men of the double standard - the men who live by force, yet count on those who live by trade to create the value of their looted money - the men who are the hitchhikers of virtue. In a moral society, these are the criminals, and the statues are written to protect you against them. But when a society establishes criminals-by-right and looters-by-law - men who use force to seize the wealth of disarmed victims - then money becomes its creators’ avenger. Such looters believe it safe to rob defenseless men, once they’ve passed a law to disarm them. But their loot becomes the magnet for other looters, who get it from them as they got it. Then the race goes, not to the ablest at production, but to those most ruthless at brutality. When force is the standard, the murderer wins over the pickpocket. And then that society vanishes, in a spread of ruins and slaughter.

Do you wish to know whether that day is coming? Watch money. Money is the barometer of a society’s virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion - when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing - when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors - when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don’t protect you against them, but protect them against you - when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice - you may know that your society is doomed. Money is so noble a medium that it does not compete with guns and it does not make terms with brutality. It will not permit a country to survive as half-property, half-loot.

Whenever destroyers appear among men, they start by destroying money, for money is men’s protection and the base of a moral existence. Destroyers seize gold and leave to its owners a counterfeit pile of paper. This kills all objective standards and delivers men into the arbitrary power of an arbitrary setter of values. Gold was an objective value, an equivalent of wealth produced. Paper is a mortgage on wealth that does not exist, backed by a gun aimed at those who are expected to produce it. Paper is a check drawn by legal looters upon an account which is not theirs: upon the virtue of the victims. Watch for the day when it bounces, marked: ‘Account overdrawn.’

When you have made evil the means of survival, do not expect men to remain good. Do not expect them to stay moral and lose their lives for the purpose of becoming the fodder of the immoral. Do not expect them to produce, when production is punished and looting rewarded. Do not ask, ‘Who is destroying the world?’ You are.

You stand in the midst of the greatest achievements of the greatest productive civilization and you wonder why it’s crumbling around you, while you’re damning its life-blood - money. You look upon money as the savages did before you, and you wonder why the jungle is creeping back to the edge of your cities. Throughout men’s history, money was always seized by looters of one brand or another, whose names changed, but whose method remained the same: to seize wealth by force and to keep the producers bound, demeaned, defamed, deprived of honor. That phrase about the evil of money, which you mouth with such righteous recklessness, comes from a time when wealth was produced by the labor of slaves - slaves who repeated the motions once discovered by somebody’s mind and left unimproved for centuries. So long as production was ruled by force, and wealth was obtained by conquest, there was little to conquer. Yet through all the centuries of stagnation and starvation, men exalted the looters, as aristocrats of the sword, as aristocrats of birth, as aristocrats of the bureau, and despised the producers, as slaves, as traders, as shopkeepers - as industrialists.

To the glory of mankind, there was, for the first and only time in history, a country of money - and I have no higher, more reverent tribute to pay to America, for this means: a country of reason, justice, freedom, production, achievement. For the first time, man’s mind and money were set free, and there were no fortunes-by-conqust, but only fortunes-by-work, and instead of swordsmen and slaves, there appeared the real maker of wealth, the greatest worker, the highest type of human being - the self-made man - the American industrialist.

If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose — because it contains all the others - the fact that they were the people who created the phrase ‘to make money.’ No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity - to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created. The words ‘ to make money’ hold the essence of human morality.

Yet these were the words for which Americans were denounced by the rotted cultures of the looters’ continents. Now the looters’ credo has brought you to regard your proudest achievements as a hallmark of shame, your prosperity as guilt, your greatest men, the industrialists, as blackguards, and your magnificent factories as the product and property of muscular labor, the labor of whip-driven slaves, like the pyramids of Egypt. The rotter who simpers that he sees no difference between the power of the dollar and the power of the whip, ought to lean the difference on his own hide - as, I think, he will.

Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns - or dollars. Take your choice - there is no other - and your time is running out.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone on this topic. People who agree are of course welcome to post, but I'm really interested in peope who hold a differing opinon on this topic. I'd like to understand your perspective and see if there's more behind it than I believe.

But please let's stick to well thought out logical points of view, not whining or rhetoric.

Discuss. :)
 
Jun 6, 2006
2,488
12
38
42
Amerika
www.dreamertheresa.com
First, we assume that all girls take time and money.

Girls = Time x Money

Furthermore, we take the statement, "Time is money", and we get:

Time = Money

Girls = Money x Money

Girls = Money^2

Moreover, the statement, "Money is the root of all evil" means that:

Evil = the square root of money

Girls = (Evil)^1/2 (Evil)^1/2

which reduces to...

Girls = Evil




?







:: ducks ::
 

Supracentral

Active Member
Mar 30, 2005
10,542
10
36
DreamerTheresa said:
:: ducks ::

How about we reduce it further to You = Evil and leave it at that...

Way to derail a thread on the 1st post you ninny... :icon_razz
 

Joel W.

Just A Jedi
Nov 7, 2005
1,561
0
0
Washington
I read it and I understand it. However, my opinion is that selfishness is what leads to evil (if there is such a thing as evil), not money. It's the lust and greed for money that some people have that can be the problem or how it is obtained at any cost to all others concerned.
 

Supracentral

Active Member
Mar 30, 2005
10,542
10
36
Adjuster said:
I believe that only the money you have earned is truely worth anything of value to you.

I'd be forced to agree. Like in the quote above, money doesn't ruin people. People ruin money.
 

Adjuster

Supramania Contributor
Let's expand this further OK?

I will use examples to make my case as well.

Let's tackle welfare first.

The idea was to help those that could not help themselves.... (Or something noble like that, but basicly it was a nation apologizing for how rich some had become, and trying to give the poor a leg up onto the ladder of becoming rich...)
Problem with the whole program is lack of requireing work product from those who benefit, and increaseing benefit based on supposed need. (As in how many children you have, you get more benefit, but actually your just adding to your problems by breeding when your unable to afford the children you have at the present moment.)

Entire societies are now based on this "welfare" lifestyle, and it's become a huge puss filled pimple world wide. Pop it, and it might scar, leave it alone, and it will eventually pass, but you have to look at it in the mirror every day...

I say pop the sucker and get it over with. End welfare as we know it. If you want money, we will create jobs so you can make money and become a positive force on society v/s a leach.

Other programs like Habitat for Humanity are equally appaling to me. WTF is up with this idea that you deserve a home? You did not work for it, so why should you get a home?

Entitlement is the end to every free society as we know it. Look at every failed free society in history. As soon as the people discover they can vote themselves wealth, the society is doomed to failure. Rand says it in much more detail, but it's very much the same message.
 

Supracentral

Active Member
Mar 30, 2005
10,542
10
36
Joel W. said:
I read it and I understand it. However, my opinion is that selfishness is what leads to evil (if there is such a thing as evil), not money.

I'd be forced to disagree on that point. Selfishness is what leads to good.

Evil can only exist if good tolerates it. Plain and simple.

To quote John Galt from the book: "Evil is impotent and has no power but that which we let it extort from us", and, "I saw that evil was impotent...and the only weapon of its triumph was the willingness of the good to serve it."

By making the statement "I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine" I think you follow the highest road.

Look at the role of the mind in man’s existence—and, as a corollary, the demonstration of a moral philosophy: the morality of rational self-interest.

Joel W. said:
It's the lust and greed for money that some people have that can be the problem or how it is obtained at any cost to all others.

I'd like to hear your definition of greed. In an earlier post, I defined greed as:

Supracentral said:
Greed - excessive or reprehensible acquisitiveness.

Simply put, greed is wanting more than you can earn.

If this is what you mean, then I agree. The looters who wish to sieze wealth from the hands of those who earned it? Yes they are evil. The bastard who uses force to compel anothers wealth away from them? Yes, they are evil. Evil incarnate.
 

Adjuster

Supramania Contributor
Next item is Indian Reservations. What a complete error on our part, and theirs.

The state of reservations in this country is for the most part pretty pathetic. The rate of poverty is overwhelming, and they are now discovering gambleing as a route to wealth for the tribe, but has it really helped, or is it just buying more booze and other problem creating substance abuse?

We should never have agreed to reservations, and the tribes should have integrated themselves into the society that the USA became over the past few hundred years. We would have all been better off as a result.

What we have now is a race of people who are reduced to waiting on a check from the government every month so the can exist on the backs of others. (Much like welfare, only older and more screwed up since there is land involved here as well.) Wealthy tribes only continue the effect by funneling more money to each resident of the community, money they did not earn, and are unable to spend responsibly as a result. (For the most part, this is how the majority of those in the program live, but there are exceptions to the rule as always, and I'm excited to see when anyone get's out of the welfare or reservation lifestyle.)

I'm not guilty of any crime to anyone's forefathers, and I owe them nothing. It would be stupid of me to go to Europe and claim that because my great grandparents were forced to leave and come to America, that they owe me money, land and an apology.

Why then do so many in this world feel compelled to give money and other favors to those who feel so offended? It's bullshit in my opinion.

Get an education, get a job, and get on with your life. (Heck, with our screwed up systems, if your a "minority" or otherwise held back by society, you get more free grants and other incintives to complete your education, so there is no excuse not to have one for anyone.)
 

Joel W.

Just A Jedi
Nov 7, 2005
1,561
0
0
Washington
Supracentral said:
I'd like to hear your definition of greed.

Joel W. said:
how it is obtained at any cost to all others.

That is what I said and that is what I meant.

Take Exxon, They produce bogus misinformation to try and confuse the public so they can keep on making money even though they know what they are doing is wrong and is killing people! They do not care how they make their money or at what cost to others involved! Greedy and Evil!!
 

Adjuster

Supramania Contributor
Selfishness and greed? Based on who's idea of what these are I ask you?

I belive that the money you "earn" is the only money you will appreciate spending, and I stand by that statement for life.

History has proven that money given away freely to those that have not earned it results in a society of lazy, ignornant and I dare to say selfish humans with no will to achieve anything, therefore they achive nothing, and destroy themselves in the process. (Welfare and Reservations are current examples of this.)

I'm not being selfish when I work hard and earn money to succeed at life.
I'm not being greedy with my hard earned money and time, so I spend it wisely in ways that make me happy, and protect my family and those important to me.

If that's evil in your book, your completly off base man.
 

Joel W.

Just A Jedi
Nov 7, 2005
1,561
0
0
Washington
Adjuster said:
I'm not being selfish when I work hard and earn money to succeed at life.

If what your are doing to earn that money is killing people and you do not realize it, then no, your just stupid..

If you do realize it and yet you try to hide the truth so you can continue making your coin then yes, you are selfish and evil..
 

SupraDerk

The Backseat Flyer
Sep 17, 2005
546
0
0
40
Tallahassee
Adjuster said:
History has proven that money given away freely to those that have not earned it results in a society of lazy, ignornant and I dare to say selfish humans with no will to achieve anything, therefore they achive nothing, and destroy themselves in the process. (Welfare and Reservations are current examples of this.)

So the money given to me through an allowance when I was a kid makes me lazy, ignorant and dare I say...a selfish human with no will to achieve anything?

I think this, like many other arguments is really subjective. Depending on how you define a lot of keywords that are used on both sides of the argument, it will define what side you stand on.

I call selfishness not wanting to help others, working to benefit you and you only and being completely self absorbed.

I call greed the endless persuit to increase your share more and more out of a finite amount of goods in a population.

There's nothing wrong with working hard to earn money and succeed at life and wanting to provide for your family and loved ones. But if you're unwilling to help your fellow countrymen or fellow man, then that would make you selfish...the bad kind of selfish. I'm not saying that welfare is good by any means. I'm not blaming those on welfare, but I do blame the government for not having consequences for being on welfare and doing nothing to better your situation.
 

Adjuster

Supramania Contributor
Killing people?

Allowance?

Ok, where exactly does the killing people start and stop in the Insurance business?

You should think before you write Joel. Comments like that make you look stupid. (To use your word.)

And Derk, did your parents make you do anything for your allowance? If not, then your parents are doing you a diservice. If you do work for your allowance, then your learning basic truths of lifein this great county. Work and get paid, save and plan, and enjoy your life. What's wrong with that?

Oh, and helping others? Well that's subjective is it not?
I love to lend a helping hand and teach someone to support themselves.
I actually work as a trainer these days, and I work to teach new claims adjusters the way to get the job done quickly, correctly and payout a fair amount to the parties involved. (Thus greasing the wheels of commerce in my own special way...)
I have, and will continue to support my own choices in charity, and feel very good about helping others.

I do hate paying taxes when I watch the government programs, invented by the liberal elite, hand out my hard earned money to lazy people who as a result feel entitled to it.

A long time ago, I posted that only land owners should be able to vote, and I stand by that view. It would solve many of the problems in this country in short order. It does not distriminate by color or creed. If you own land, you can vote. I would have to add that you need to be a citizen, and a land owner to vote, but I belive citizenship should be tied to owning land as well. It shows your here to stay, and have a stake in our future, so you should be able to vote, and be a citizen.
 
Last edited:

Joel W.

Just A Jedi
Nov 7, 2005
1,561
0
0
Washington
Adjuster said:
Killing people?

Allowance?

Ok, where exactly does the killing people start and stop in the Insurance business?

You should think before you write Joel. Comments like that make you look stupid. (To use your word.)

Relax Adjuster, I meant no offense..I am not saying you were or are stupid, greedy or evil... I said "IF"... ;)

You should know by know, I choose my words VERY carefully around here!

It was an example of what can be considered stupid, greedy and or evil.
 

SupraDerk

The Backseat Flyer
Sep 17, 2005
546
0
0
40
Tallahassee
I'm 22 now...about to graduate with a degree in Computer Engineering and be an officer in the military. I have no children, never been in trouble with the law, and I don't do drugs. I don't think they did me a disservice.

Sometimes I had to do chores, sometimes I didn't. They wanted me to focus on school and doing the best I could in it. They told me time and again that "school is your job."

But they taught me how to be somewhat selfless. And selflessness I think is something this world...hell, mostly the U.S. REALLY needs. Most people are not willing to do ANYTHING for someone they don't know. I will gladly give money to someone less fortunate than me...one time. It is up to them to do wisely with what is given to them. But I'm giving them an opportunity to better their situation and I think that we should see that more in our society.
 

Adjuster

Supramania Contributor
Cool for you man.
Seriously.

There is one group I forgot to have in my "voters" and that is the military.

So, if you own land or serve(d) in the military you should be able to vote. (And it would pretty much guarentee being a citizen in my book too.)

Joel, I know your stuck on the idea that my burning of hydrocarbons is some how a crime against nature and man, but dude, your wrong so get over it.

Derk, much of what I've come to belive has changed over my life, so I think at 22 your pretty well grounded with a degree. Also with your future service in the military, you will see many things, and develop your own well founded opinions on helping others. It sounds like your on the right track with wanting to help, and wanting who needs the help to learn from the experiance. (Actually, both sides learn from it...)

My point is that welfare does not teach anyone to be dependant on themselves, but to be dependant on welfare. (New Orleans showed us this in great detail to the horror of anyone who has had to deal with Katrina.)

Reservations have also created a complete society where nobody knows how to provide for themselves anymore because it's all been provided with no work required.

When you fail to plan "and work", you truely are just planning to fail. (Quote of someone I think but it's very true, but I added the work part in there...)
 

SupraDerk

The Backseat Flyer
Sep 17, 2005
546
0
0
40
Tallahassee
Oh I totally agree with you on welfare, hah. I'm no fan of it in it's current form, but don't neccessarily object to giving someone an opportunity to change their situation. If it was redone to add consequences for using it, or some kind of incentive to get off of it (*cough* jail time or mandatory military service or something *cough*, haha), then it would work out better.
 

Joel W.

Just A Jedi
Nov 7, 2005
1,561
0
0
Washington
Adjuster said:
Joel, I know your stuck on the idea that my burning of hydrocarbons is some how a crime against nature and man, but dude, your wrong so get over it.
So you keep saying, but you have not proven your case in any way shape or form. So only time will tell here... :)

Edit: It's only a crime if we continue to do so in massive quantities with out reguard to others, even though we now know it is harmful to humanity and this planet. There is still awsome profit to be made in clean efficient energy and if done correctly, it can save the planet and keep our economy going strong!... We still have some time left to change I hope.

Back on topic...