Making a highly responsive, streetable and pump gas only efficient 2JZ...ideas please

[Spaniard]

Purpose:

I wanted to make this thread as a concept idea, and for brain-storming. This is an idea that I have been formulating for some time now. Please throw ideas out to me, but when you do please have a good basis and use factual information on your idea. Before I create a build thread of any sort, I want to make I have a good plan for my motor.

Goal:

To have my MKIII Supra be very responsive, torquey, a linear powerband with good top end. To extract very good power on pump gas only. The car will remain very streetable and simply made. (Dont tell me to buy a V8, I'm not going to make my thread all about that). 500whp is the goal on pump gas. I will be spending 98% of my time in this car using it on pump gas, it will see C16 but only as an added bonus after I build it for pump gas 93 octane only.

Build:

Stock 2JZ-GE VVT-i Motor
GT35R (T3) .82A/R
TT Head Gasket (Bringing the compression down to 9.0:1)
Custom intake manifold plenum on stock lower runners
Port Matched Head
Custom Garrett 3-Row Intercooler Air-to-air
MR-S Shimless Factory Buckets
1JZ Lightened Flywheel
Lightened Pullies
Phenolic Intake Manifold Gasket (Lower Intake temps)
ATi Crank Dampener
Pro-EFi 128 Standalone

Theory:

The 2JZ-GE head stock for stock versus the 2JZ-GTE head flows better till a certain point, apparently sub-650hp according to a lot of people that have been building motors and in the business of making power. This is back up by having bigger exhaust ports, but slightly smaller intake side. The intake side being port matched has yielded good gains in CFM flow. The exhaust ports on the 2JZ-GE are straighter and on the TT head there was a sacrifice made in the head to make the sequentials fit.

I dont want to retain the high-compression from factory and using the TT head gasket will allow me to drop it down to a more modest 9.0:1 compression. Giving me outstanding off-boost response and faster spool. Some of you may say that 8.5:1 versus the 9.0:1 is not that big a difference and just lower it so you can run more boost instead. But I rather have a torquey low-end, responsive power with less boost. I will still be able to run a decent ~17-18 psi on it, so long as I have a good efficient front mount intercooler to keep intake temps low along with the phenolic intake manifold adapter to keep heat out of the intake tract. And a very good tune with my ProEFi-128 will make the setup stable.

The lightened pullys wont make that big a difference, but it should help with responsivness. Anything you take off the rotating assembly the better, so the pullies should help, along with the lightening flywheel, the shimless buckets too.

A 264 exhaust cam will give me a more aggressive top end with out the power falling off as I go higher in the rpm band. And last but not least, the VVT-i function. It is a fact that VVT-i's make better torque and horsepower numbers when compared to their fixed cam rivals. The VVT-i will allow me to spool faster, give me even more bottom end torque and very good top end as well. All controlled by a Pro-EFI 128 for reliability and consistency sake.

Misc.

I have a ton of information and ideas. This is more of a final product on my idea, but I'm very flexible on it. I dont mind the critique or any questions. If you have a question on why I chose something, I have good reason for it. Please feel to ask me, and I will provide info!

 

[tissimo]

vvti ge bottom end is garbage, and go with a GT37R turbo or PT 6262.

I assume the proefi 128 will control the vvti without issues?

Shimless buckets are a waste of money at this stage.


If it were my car, I'd go gt4294 with 9.5 compression.. vvti + high compressor the turbo will probably be online by 4k

 

[Spaniard]

vvti ge bottom end is garbage, and go with a GT37R turbo or PT 6262.

I assume the proefi 128 will control the vvti without issues?

Shimless buckets are a waste of money at this stage.


If it were my car, I'd go gt4294 with 9.5 compression.. vvti + high compressor the turbo will probably be online by 4k

Justin, what makes you think the VVT-i 2JZ-GE bottom end is garbage? Do you have proof of this? I think this myth has been dis-proven now. Because I have several very reliable sources that show the VVT-i bottom end is exactly the same as any other normal 2JZ-GTE (except for the oil squirters). As a matter a fact, I have a buddy of mine that has a 2JZ-GTE VVT-i, that everyone said would be waaaay weaker, pulled it apart to freshen up the bottom end. The motor is exactly the same to my JDM 2JZ-GTE Aristo is every aspect. Side-by-side comparison was identical.

There is not flow map for the GT37R, so I cant trust the turbo even though people have had success on it. The PT6262, I have heard great things about it, but is there a flow map? I am going according to facts here and I have a flow map for the GT3582R and it has the highest efficiency I have seen out of any other turbocharger in its catagory other than a Borg Warner S2XX series.

Yes, the Pro-EFi 128 will control the VVT-i no problem. I dont want to bump up the compression up to 9.5:1 cause its a pump gas machine only. And having boost come online by 4k is way too late. Thats not responsive at all in my opinion.

 

[Bigzavs]

the n/a vvti bottom end cant take anything, its the GTE vvti bottom end that can take abuse. i believe its the rods in the GE block that give out, around 400whp iirc.

i have driven my friends GT35R mkiv, anywhere you get into it, there is boost, damn it was alot of fun

 

[OneJSupra]

Jonathan, what's up man. You rode in my car (untuned) when we went to Merrit Island. Wait till you ride in it again. Now tuned, I'm at 460+ whp pump gas with MP T61 turbo. A PT6262 billet wheel turbo will definitely put a wider smile in my face at 22lbs of boost and C16.

Good luck with your build.

 

[tissimo]

GT37R is a 4088r compressor with a 35r turbine IIRC.

The NA VVTi rods are weak and small. Do a search on SF or club lexus about it. They're much smaller then the old non-vvti Ge rods. The GTE vvti still has big strong rods in it like the previous GE and GTE.

If 4k is too late you'll have a tough time getting 500hp on pump gas. If response is all you're after I'd go with a 3076R with a BIG backhousing. Itll probably make 4 on pump but be ista boost pretty much.

The key to getting high pump gas power is to deal with the heat left over in the cumbustion chamber, and by doing so you want as little backpressure as possible (big turbine & housing) and will increase your spool time. Also with a larger turbine/backhousing with a decent sized turbo you'll be able to hold the power MUCH longer extending your power band. And wont need too much sub 3500 rpms coming out of a corner or wahtever (assume you want the response for road racing), just downshift and get in your powerband.

 

[Spaniard]

the n/a vvti bottom end cant take anything, its the GTE vvti bottom end that can take abuse. i believe its the rods in the GE block that give out, around 400whp iirc.

i have driven my friends GT35R mkiv, anywhere you get into it, there is boost, damn it was alot of fun

You may have a point here on the VVT-i GE bottom end. But I can use a normal 2JZ-GE bottom end with the VVT-i head still.

Jonathan, what's up man. You rode in my car (untuned) when we went to Merrit Island. Wait till you ride in it again. Now tuned, I'm at 460+ whp pump gas with MP T61 turbo. A PT6262 billet wheel turbo will definitely put a wider smile in my face at 22lbs of boost and C16.

Good luck with your build.

Hey buddy, how you doing? Sounds great that your making that kind of power. Absolutely awesome! I'm coming down there for the next spring break for a little partying but the new winter build will be ready by then! I will definitely need to PM you so we can get together and have a mini-supra meet.

GT37R is a 4088r compressor with a 35r turbine IIRC.

The NA VVTi rods are weak and small. Do a search on SF or club lexus about it. They're much smaller then the old non-vvti Ge rods. The GTE vvti still has big strong rods in it like the previous GE and GTE.

If 4k is too late you'll have a tough time getting 500hp on pump gas. If response is all you're after I'd go with a 3076R with a BIG backhousing. Itll probably make 4 on pump but be ista boost pretty much.

The key to getting high pump gas power is to deal with the heat left over in the cumbustion chamber, and by doing so you want as little backpressure as possible (big turbine & housing) and will increase your spool time. Also with a larger turbine/backhousing with a decent sized turbo you'll be able to hold the power MUCH longer extending your power band. And wont need too much sub 3500 rpms coming out of a corner or wahtever (assume you want the response for road racing), just downshift and get in your powerband.

Yup. Did a little research and the GE VVT-i rods are looking to be weaker. Thats fine. I can use a standard GE bottom end and that will hold all the power I need all day and I can still use the VVT-i head setup.

I dont feel a GT3076R is the route, its too small for my setup. Especially when I have the compression at 9.0:1 and VVT-i.

Just because you make the hotside housing larger, doesnt necessarily mean that the lag is also going to increase. Fundamentals of turbocharging are vastly mis-understood. For example, if I have a .58A/R GT35r and a .82A/R GT35R. Which one do you think will spool faster. 95% of the people I ask say the .58A/R, when in fact this is very wrong. The .58A/R is not efficient at all on the GT35R. All turbo's have a sweet spot and an efficiency range on their turbos. This is why Garrett releases flow charts on their turbos with certain A/R's only. In my case, the .82 A/R on my GT3582R in T3 flange is actually at 77% efficiency which is huge.

There is a guy on SF with a GT3582R in .63A/R with a T3 flange, with a stock block 2JZ-GTE making 497whp and full boost by 3.2k. That was with everything stock, that turbo, and a MAP-ECU2 on pump gas. And the power held till 7k all day. So much for back pressure huh? lol.

Tissimo, I think your missing the point of my thread here. And I love your input, but I dont think we are on the same page. I dont want to be one gear about from boost. The power is suppose to be linear and always have boost sub 3.5k. A Gt3076 in 1.06A/R had some great results on the Amuse Supra with the road racing setup, but its too small for the 3.0L 2JZ. Furthermore, I'm bumping up the compression a tad and using VVT-i for better spool up, tq, and HP numbers across the powerband.

Everyone should check out this thread on SF. It is by far one of the most informative threads on proper turbo-sizing that I have come across with factual information and not hear-say.

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=530737&highlight=efficient

 

[tissimo]

Too small for your setup? what are the goals with the car (what do you want to do with it, rather then 500whp and quick response)?

I skimmed over that thread and I'm quiet surprised by the response of the 35r on the IS, I didn't think itd come on that fast, wow. But My point still holds true, the power up top is lacking. The powerband is similar to if it came on at 4k and ran it out to 7500. Also they dyno is falling short of the 500whp goal on pump. I wouldn't want to run more then 18 psi with a good aggressive tune with 9.0 compression.

Also a .58 will spool faster, the exhaust gases are accelerated because of the smaller area thus increasing the speed at witch they hit the turbine cause it to spool faster. Of course the small A/R will choke out on the top end.

You'll have to look into a custom oil line setup for the VVTi head. IIRC its an external feed so you'll be ok using a non vvti block. Probably the IS oil filter housing bolt + a custom line would be ok.

 

[Spaniard]

Too small for your setup? what are the goals with the car (what do you want to do with it, rather then 500whp and quick response)?

I skimmed over that thread and I'm quiet surprised by the response of the 35r on the IS, I didn't think itd come on that fast, wow. But My point still holds true, the power up top is lacking. The powerband is similar to if it came on at 4k and ran it out to 7500. Also they dyno is falling short of the 500whp goal on pump. I wouldn't want to run more then 18 psi with a good aggressive tune with 9.0 compression.

Also a .58 will spool faster, the exhaust gases are accelerated because of the smaller area thus increasing the speed at witch they hit the turbine cause it to spool faster. Of course the small A/R will choke out on the top end.

You'll have to look into a custom oil line setup for the VVTi head. IIRC its an external feed so you'll be ok using a non vvti block. Probably the IS oil filter housing bolt + a custom line would be ok.

Custom oil line not a problem. Yes, the 35R comes online way fast. But like my goal was stated in the beginning of the thread. This car is suppose to have the flattest linear power and torque curve, while still being able to make 500whp on pump. Not everyone wants to make their peak power at 7k+ Justin. I want my power to be down low, mid-range, and with a decent top end.

And as feedback from someone that has already done the GT3582R with a .63A/R, and I quote from his experience with the car.

I drove Adam’s brand new GT3582R yesterday. It was Earth Day, and I‘d been environmentally responsible all day, but when I slipped behind the wheel of his pristine ’94 around 9 pm things got a little ugly. I’ve always struggled with street driving a high performance car, and restraint doesn’t come easily. This is probably why many of us are drawn to the road course, and it was cruel punishment having to drive this beast on public roads.

I knew I was going to be impressed, with his dyno already confirming what the turbo-matching exercise had predicted. But I’m not sure I had really got my head around how much different it was going to actually feel because when the time came I was just blown away. The dyno shows it makes more torque everywhere than my strong BPU, and that’s obvious from the driver’s seat by 3000 rpm where it’s already making 255 vs 220 lbft. By 3500 rpm it’s making well over 100 lbft more and I was constantly prepared for the rear tires to break loose. In that regard 1st and 2nd gear aren’t of much use, but 3rd is a wonderful thing. We did several pulls on a long straight road in a deserted industrial area where pavement irregularities threatened grip in 3rd, and speed threatened my license. The whole time I was thinking about this setup on the road course with the widest possible sticky R-compounds stuffed into the wheel wells.


I was only able to rev the engine high a couple of times due to the speed, but the top end felt very strong and unrestrained. I had the sense that it really wanted to make power, whereas you feel you’re pushing a BPU at higher rpms. His logging repeatedly showed 15–16 psi before 3300 rpm, with boost ramping up slowly after that to 18+. Adam is still working on his fuel tune, with a current sensor location giving him some grief. I could really feel power suffer when AFR dipped into the 10’s or richer.

We also drove on a highway where I was able to focus more on drivability and throttle response. The improvement over BPU is obvious in all gears, and one rather tight and long on-ramp nicely demonstrated the improvement I’ve been looking for in 3rd gear. I was able to enter it in 3rd gear where it was quite tight and slow, gently add power with the suspension having taken a corner set, and then slowly feed on substantial power up to WOT as the corner opened up…all without having a flat spot in power or running out of revs on exit.

I had also hoped to be able to experience whatever surge might exit, but really wasn’t able to despite trying to induce it. While I could barely hear a bit of a fluttering sound, I couldn’t feel anything, or even be sure it wasn’t something other than surge. I think Adam will be able to comment more accurately as he gets a chance to drive the car under more normal conditions in the weeks ahead, and I know he's prepared to switch to a .82AR turbine housing if it is a problem. Otherwise I think this GT3582R single scroll .63 AR on cast manifold offers an incredibly wide and strong powerband that many others would enjoy on the both the road and track.

@: http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6738663&postcount=252

I dont agree with your .58 A/R assesment and Ill tell you why.

And I quote from Geoff @ Full Race from the SF thread:

defnitely do not use the smallest turbine housing possible... it will not deliver what you think it will. the turbine needs to breathe, especially 10 blade designs. In my experience the gt4088R is terrible with the .85 a/r, it works much better with the .95 and best with the 1.06. you cant get something for nothing - if you want fast spool using a big turbo w/ small turbine housing wont do it. you need the right size turbo and the right a/r housing. thats all there is to it.

2) too small of an a/r can hurt performance and not spool any faster. In fact we did a 40R test where we tried all the different a/r twinscroll housings available, and the .85 did not spool any earlier than .95 and the .85 lost power everywhere after 5000rpm.

@: http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6686143&postcount=159

A/R is not one and the same... ie: a T3 .82 a/r has similar volume to T4 .68 because the 'R' on the t4 is larger, and the "A" is constant.

every turbine wheel has 1 or 2 housings that it works well with... the "Sweet spot". I hate when i see people stick a small a/r on a big turbine wheel "to get better spool". if you want faster spool you need smaller wheels, thats it. you can not cheat physics

@: http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6720133&postcount=216

As you can see, you may have a slight point where a .58 is going to move your power ever so slightly, but the efficiency is going to be horendus. Just as a heads up too. I have had a .58A/R GT3582R on a 1.5JZ (which is very comparable to a 2JZ-GTE) and didnt make full boost till 4,100rpms. Yes the tune was spot on and AFR's in check. I switched out to .82A/R and my full boost mark dropped down to 3,600. Every turbo has a sweet spot. As Geoff from Full Race said, "you can't cheat physics..." :icon_bigg

 

[rakkasan]

I offer that you run the compression calculator to ensure that the TT MHG will give you the 9.0:1 C/R you're looking for. I'm not saying it won't, I don't know your piston & head cc, but I had to go with a 2.0mm on my 1.5 (GE bottom end) in order to get the compression correct.

I (and Suprahero) just did a compression check and found that the 2.0mm HG yielded 174-180 psi.

 

[tissimo]

Custom oil line not a problem. Yes, the 35R comes online way fast. But like my goal was stated in the beginning of the thread. This car is suppose to have the flattest linear power and torque curve, while still being able to make 500whp on pump. Not everyone wants to make their peak power at 7k+ Justin. I want my power to be down low, mid-range, and with a decent top end.

And as feedback from someone that has already done the GT3582R with a .63A/R, and I quote from his experience with the car.



@: http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6738663&postcount=252

I dont agree with your .58 A/R assesment and Ill tell you why.

And I quote from Geoff @ Full Race from the SF thread:






@: http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6686143&postcount=159



@: http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6720133&postcount=216

As you can see, you may have a slight point where a .58 is going to move your power ever so slightly, but the efficiency is going to be horendus. Just as a heads up too. I have had a .58A/R GT3582R on a 1.5JZ (which is very comparable to a 2JZ-GTE) and didnt make full boost till 4,100rpms. Yes the tune was spot on and AFR's in check. I switched out to .82A/R and my full boost mark dropped down to 3,600. Every turbo has a sweet spot. As Geoff from Full Race said, "you can't cheat physics..." :icon_bigg

I hear what you're saying, but its not 100% all the time. Obviously the turbine needs a certain amount of flow through it to actually spool it and the increased velocity of the airflow has a slight effect on the spool, and maybe with your .58 you're simply not getting enough flow through it and actually choking the turbine, causing the reduced perfromance. But saying a .82 and a 1.01 the 1.01 will spool the same is a big stretch. But to your original question yes, you appear to be right, but its a misleading statment.

So you're mainly looking for low end power, and you'd like your powerband to be flat? With low reving engine you'll need a lot of air to get the torque numbers needed to get your 500hp (480-500ftlbs depending on where you want it), and with a high compression engine and pump gas I just dont think you're goals of 500whp are attainable.

So, with that you'll have to decide what you're really looking for, pump gas power or low end power.

 

[rakkasan]

As you can see, you may have a slight point where a .58 is going to move your power ever so slightly, but the efficiency is going to be horendus. Just as a heads up too. I have had a .58A/R GT3582R on a 1.5JZ (which is very comparable to a 2JZ-GTE) and didnt make full boost till 4,100rpms. Yes the tune was spot on and AFR's in check. I switched out to .82A/R and my full boost mark dropped down to 3,600. Every turbo has a sweet spot. As Geoff from Full Race said, "you can't cheat physics..." :icon_bigg

Really? I hit full boost with a .58 61-1 on a 1JZ at 3300ish rpm. I know, turbos are different, but.....

 

[tsuper92]

how about a bigger a/r on the 35r? i like the .96 on my gt40

 

[tekdeus]

I've been reading the SF thread. Those VVTI spool and numbers are incredible. Just do what this guy did, and run a meth kit for 22psi, and you will achieve your goal. I might be doing the same thing down the road with my Billet 35r and spool valve Although a budget-breaker, imagine the spool with adding in a 3.4 stroker kit?! :aigo:

 

[Spaniard]

how about a bigger a/r on the 35r? i like the .96 on my gt40

GT40 is a terrible turbo unless its in a twin-scroll configuration. Not sure if you were suggesting that, but not really an option. As far as the bigger A/R, please refer to what I was saying above when concerning A/R's. Bigger doesnt always mean better.

Really? I hit full boost with a .58 61-1 on a 1JZ at 3300ish rpm. I know, turbos are different, but.....

Yeah, different turbo. But I do have back to back dyno's after changing the hotside housing. A very small hotside with the GT35 compressor was terrible. Like I said, ever turbo has a sweet spot. And you were right about the compression calculator, I will confirm. Thank you for the heads up.

I hear what you're saying, but its not 100% all the time. Obviously the turbine needs a certain amount of flow through it to actually spool it and the increased velocity of the airflow has a slight effect on the spool, and maybe with your .58 you're simply not getting enough flow through it and actually choking the turbine, causing the reduced perfromance. But saying a .82 and a 1.01 the 1.01 will spool the same is a big stretch. But to your original question yes, you appear to be right, but its a misleading statment.

So you're mainly looking for low end power, and you'd like your powerband to be flat? With low reving engine you'll need a lot of air to get the torque numbers needed to get your 500hp (480-500ftlbs depending on where you want it), and with a high compression engine and pump gas I just dont think you're goals of 500whp are attainable.

So, with that you'll have to decide what you're really looking for, pump gas power or low end power.

The guy on SF to that link I keep refering to made 497whp at 19psi on pump gas with a GT3582R .63A/R (T3 Flange). And it was just on a map-ecu 2, and ill be running a far more advanced standalone allowing me a more precise tune. Take a look at his HP/TQ numbers versus some other cars, its nuts. (this is just at 17psi on a rich tune, doesnt show its true colors).

So I do know I can make 500whp on this turbo. I guess I'm looking for an even better setup. So, Justin...I think you may have a point about the higher compression though. By running the extra compression, I will have to compromise on my timing and lower point to get that 500whp mark on this turbo, with the great response and what not. So, I was thinking...the sweet spot on this turbo as far as pressure is about ~24psi. I should keep the compression at 8.5:1 like a factory 2JZ-GTE, run the extra boost that I would be able to on pump gas 19-20psi and just let the VVT-i do the work for me to get that extra edge I'm looking for.

Furthermore, this guy was running a .63 A/R in T3 flange. Running the .82A/R on Garrett's flow map, it looks to be even more efficient than the .63, furthering myself farther away from the surge line as well. This will shift my power/torque a little up in the band, better for top end. I'll just let the VVT-i work its magic. haha. I cant change the intake cam, unless i do a regrind or get an upgraded one for way more. So I'll just be upgrading the exhaust cam to a 264 duration.

I know this sounds pretty cocky, but I think I should be able to do a solid ~510-520whp on my setup with pump gas only. I set the bar high so I can hit with a goal. hahaha.

 

[leecheater]

Guys I don't profess to be a tuning expert but getting 500 rwhp was pretty easy. My set up is similar with the exception of E-85 and 1200cc injectors. See my signature below.
In Minnesota E-85 is every where. Race gas for less than 2.00 a gallon. I put down 550 rwhp with 515 TQ at 22 lbs of boost. The GT3582dbb with T3 manifold is a hell of a lot of fun to drive. This weekend we will be going back to the dyno and I fully expect to put down at least 600 possibly 625 with only a few more pounds of boost. The boost comes on strong at 3700 rpm and it's simply amazing from there. I have been street racing all summer (no losses yet) and I even took her to the track and put down respectable numbers. I have posted my dyno sheets before. If all goes well this weekend will be posting higher #s on Saturday night.

 

[snootworks]

Guys I don't profess to be a tuning expert but getting 500 rwhp was pretty easy. My set up is similar with the exception of E-85 and 1200cc injectors. See my signature below.
In Minnesota E-85 is every where. Race gas for less than 2.00 a gallon. I put down 550 rwhp with 515 TQ at 22 lbs of boost. The GT3582dbb with T3 manifold is a hell of a lot of fun to drive. This weekend we will be going back to the dyno and I fully expect to put down at least 600 possibly 625 with only a few more pounds of boost. The boost comes on strong at 3700 rpm and it's simply amazing from there. I have been street racing all summer (no losses yet) and I even took her to the track and put down respectable numbers. I have posted my dyno sheets before. If all goes well this weekend will be posting higher #s on Saturday night.

Nice! I picked up a 1.5J'd MkIII off of a previous customer that ended up needing a fresh turbo; I put a GT3582R w/ .82 turbine housing on it and made 510whp/487wtq @ 20lbs when we spun it up (on 94 octane pump gas.) That's with very little (ie crappy) tuning. New fuel system, and some decent management to come and I'll see what she'll do!

I agree; the 3582 makes a fun car.

 

[tsuper92]

GT40 is a terrible turbo unless its in a twin-scroll configuration. Not sure if you were suggesting that, but not really an option. As far as the bigger A/R, please refer to what I was saying above when concerning A/R's. Bigger doesnt always mean better

i had a pt61 with .58 hot side on my 1jz that was awesome,but sucked ass bad on my 2jz.i couldn't even control boost.it would spike up to 20psi like you flicked a light switch.my new turbo feel's much better on the seat of your pant's dyno.
i just can't see a 35r with anything smaller then an .82 being any good on a 2jz.my .02$ anyway's