Locating my problem with turbo failure

[hottscennessey]

I've had problems with killing turbos, I know people have had problems with SP61GT's, some accounit to their oil feed line being too narrow and too long. It took me about 6 months to kill my turbo.

I decided to run a Garrett T04E. It came with a beautiful -4AN feed line which fit perfectly with no sag or tension. It had a -10AN return line. It started smoking after one week. It was brand new when I installed it.

Now, I'm trying to locate the route for this evil. First things first, oil lines.

I fired up my car, and moved it, and then I shut it off. The turbo was filled to the brim with oil when I took off the feed... however; it was not immediately draining. Is this normal, or is it a clue that there is a problem with the drain?

 

[malloynx]

i know my boss turbo came with a restrictor for the feedline. i really don't know why you are killing turbo's. how is your oil setup? id pull the line off the block and see if there is any restriction in there.

did you use any RTV to seal the flange to the block> i hope not.... that's a big no no

 

[hottscennessey]

My oil system is completely stock in every way shape and form.

And I didn't use RTV sealant.. will that contaminate the oil or goop up things.. or both?

 

[hottscennessey]

okay, so I just finished pulling the turbo, there was no oil in the downpipe.. exhaust side.. or the turbo manifold.. WTF? Also, I didn't see evidence that oil had ever burned off from these places (someone told me white reidue in the past, not sure how accurate that is).
I was thinking PCV system before, but a certain retired member seems to think I should keep looking towards the PCV, I think hes right.

 

[malloynx]

what is your pvc setup?

 

[hottscennessey]

individual 1/2" hoses (one per valve cover).. road draft.

I have some serious blowby problems, so I need to figure something out.

 

[Jack]

MAlloy
Are you referring to the the filter? I know we don't put any restrictor on the oil lines. I suppose it would be a restrictor if the filter isn't cleaned though. The BOSS series uses all -6 feed lines and -10 return lines.
We havn't had any issues with starvation so far. I am not really sure why anyone would use the -3 or even -4 for feed lines. Simply in my mind bigger turbo needs more oil for lub and cooling.

We can make up any lines that anyone needs if you want to upgrade to larger feed lines. I will be adding a "design-it-yourself" kit so you will be able to tell us what fittings and how long and they will be custom made to your specs. The turn-around will be the same day the order is generated because we build all the lines in house
Jack

 

[MDCmotorsports]

MAlloy
Are you referring to the the filter? I know we don't put any restrictor on the oil lines. I suppose it would be a restrictor if the filter isn't cleaned though. The BOSS series uses all -6 feed lines and -10 return lines.
We havn't had any issues with starvation so far. I am not really sure why anyone would use the -3 or even -4 for feed lines. Simply in my mind bigger turbo needs more oil for lub and cooling.

We can make up any lines that anyone needs if you want to upgrade to larger feed lines. I will be adding a "design-it-yourself" kit so you will be able to tell us what fittings and how long and they will be custom made to your specs. The turn-around will be the same day the order is generated because we build all the lines in house
Jack

Jack:
In the past, -5 or -6 lines have been far too big for the smal shaft to4 based turbos. With that much volume, I have found that you sneak oil past the front and rear main seals.

From what I have found, -4 is the most common feed line, both by industry standard and aftermarket.

i know my boss turbo came with a restrictor for the feedline. i really don't know why you are killing turbo's. how is your oil setup? id pull the line off the block and see if there is any restriction in there.

did you use any RTV to seal the flange to the block> i hope not.... that's a big no no

Mike, alot of the ball bearing turbos made by garrett (GT series) actually require a restrictor due to the fact you will blow the bearings out of the cartridge. This introduces a new problem: oil starvation due to contaminated oil.

As you stated, RTV "any thing" is a HUGE NO NO.

okay, so I just finished pulling the turbo, there was no oil in the downpipe.. exhaust side.. or the turbo manifold.. WTF? Also, I didn't see evidence that oil had ever burned off from these places (someone told me white reidue in the past, not sure how accurate that is).
I was thinking PCV system before, but a certain retired member seems to think I should keep looking towards the PCV, I think hes right.

All turbos must have a vacuum on the return side, either by engine source or mechanical / electrical sump.

Your pvc system supplies this vacuum. You need to make sure your valve covers indeed pull vacuum off the intake track of the turbo.

Also, be sure to check that the return line isn't kinked in any way. Your return line is a teflon coated steel braided line. Check to make sure the line isn't up against the header and or melted / kinked inside and creating an obstruction.

Last, check to make sure you have a large enough air filter and that it is clean and of quality. If its dirty, small, or of poor quality it will create a vacuum on the front side of the turbo.

Report back and let us know.

P.s.

Oil burn off in the turbo is indeed white, as is some coolants.

 

[hottscennessey]

Its the PCV, I don't have the proper Vac as both MDC and IJ have stated to me before.

I have problems with blowby so I would like to stay away from rerouting it back into the intake (vomiting oil from BOV at 20+ PSI).

I'm thinking about an eletric, or even belt driven (if I could do it) smog pump to supply enough vac to the block and valve covers. can anyone think of any drawbacks to this idea? I mean, other than enviromental factors, because I'm not going to be driving my car much anyways.

 

[MDCmotorsports]

Its the PCV, I don't have the proper Vac as both MDC and IJ have stated to me before.

I have problems with blowby so I would like to stay away from rerouting it back into the intake (vomiting oil from BOV at 20+ PSI).

I'm thinking about an eletric, or even belt driven (if I could do it) smog pump to supply enough vac to the block and valve covers. can anyone think of any drawbacks to this idea? I mean, other than enviromental factors, because I'm not going to be driving my car much anyways.

Ive got a better one for you.

Get a catch can with baffles in it so as to use it as a condensor box for the vapors.

Run the valve cover hoses into the bottom of the can, with the vacuum support line comming out the top.

Also, you can use a water catch trap off of a air compressor setup. I have seen this in person and it works quite well.

 

[hottscennessey]

also, isn't it a good idea to use larger lines as well to keep the vac from sucking oil out of the valve covers? Because I believe thats why it happened before with the oil puking.

 

[MmmBoost]

a while back, i had a huge problem with smoke out of the exhaust... i rebuilt my turbo cuz i thought it was blown. put it back on, and got the same problem. then i hooked my pcv back up the stock way it was, and the problem went away. no more smoke.

i havent had a lot of buildup on my charge pipes or any issues with blow off valve like you said, but my bov is a porsche unit routed back into the intake tract. dunno if that has anything to do with it.

 

[hottscennessey]

Thanks for posting, MmmBoost, that gives me hope!

 

[Jack]

I have heard this discussion a few times.....pressure will be the sasme in -2 as -6 lines it's the volume required that will be the diiference. If the oil feed line puts out lets say 5psi of oil pressure....it will be 5psi on -2,-3,-4,-5-6.
Pressure is the same it's volume that should differ. Of all the BOSS series turo's we have on the market none have had issues relating to starvation or seals leaking. If the return is undersized I could possibly see the "seal blow by" but any unused oil should be returned in the drain right?

Jack:
In the past, -5 or -6 lines have been far too big for the smal shaft to4 based turbos. With that much volume, I have found that you sneak oil past the front and rear main seals.

From what I have found, -4 is the most common feed line, both by industry standard and aftermarket.




Mike, alot of the ball bearing turbos made by garrett (GT series) actually require a restrictor due to the fact you will blow the bearings out of the cartridge. This introduces a new problem: oil starvation due to contaminated oil.

As you stated, RTV "any thing" is a HUGE NO NO.



All turbos must have a vacuum on the return side, either by engine source or mechanical / electrical sump.

Your pvc system supplies this vacuum. You need to make sure your valve covers indeed pull vacuum off the intake track of the turbo.

Also, be sure to check that the return line isn't kinked in any way. Your return line is a teflon coated steel braided line. Check to make sure the line isn't up against the header and or melted / kinked inside and creating an obstruction.

Last, check to make sure you have a large enough air filter and that it is clean and of quality. If its dirty, small, or of poor quality it will create a vacuum on the front side of the turbo.

Report back and let us know.

P.s.

Oil burn off in the turbo is indeed white, as is some coolants.

 

[MDCmotorsports]

I have heard this discussion a few times.....pressure will be the sasme in -2 as -6 lines it's the volume required that will be the diiference. If the oil feed line puts out lets say 5psi of oil pressure....it will be 5psi on -2,-3,-4,-5-6.
Pressure is the same it's volume that should differ. Of all the BOSS series turo's we have on the market none have had issues relating to starvation or seals leaking. If the return is undersized I could possibly see the "seal blow by" but any unused oil should be returned in the drain right?

Thats what the turbo hopes will happen.

Problem is, you need positive pressure on one side of the piston ring seal, and negative pressure on the other (inside the cartridge).

When this role is reversed, you get seal blow by.

The more a piston ring seal leaks on the turbine side, the more its susceptible to being "burnt" by the oil leak turning into coking or a hard piece of carbon.

When the carbon gets stuck in the now hot piston ring bore, you get a scored piston ring & bore and a permanent oil leak / smoke.

 

[Jack]

wow your always online

 

[aljordan]

When sizing the return line, you double the feed. -4 feed and -8 return. THis is outlined in the book maximum boost by corky bell. I've had zero problems with -4 and -8 in 65k miles.

THis same book also claims that anything more than -4 on a feed line is not needed and possibly harmfull.

 

[MKIIINA]

/\ unless you run some sort of restrictor or filter. i know ive had issues with my -3 line on my sp61gt leading to multiple turbo failures.

Thats what the turbo hopes will happen.

Problem is, you need positive pressure on one side of the piston ring seal, and negative pressure on the other (inside the cartridge).

When this role is reversed, you get seal blow by.

The more a piston ring seal leaks on the turbine side, the more its susceptible to being "burnt" by the oil leak turning into coking or a hard piece of carbon.

When the carbon gets stuck in the now hot piston ring bore, you get a scored piston ring & bore and a permanent oil leak / smoke.

John I had a question for you. How about a catch can venting to the atmo? I currently have my valve covers doing a 2->1 to a catch can and then a filter on the other side vented to the atmo. whats your input on this as i have seen several people running similiar.

 

[hottscennessey]

Thanks guys, I re-installed the turbo and made sure the drain looked straight.. no worries about the drain now.

I'm going to rig up a PCV system with 1/2" lines comming off of each valve covers, going to a catch can, and possibly a 5/8" line off a fitting welded to my J-tube blockoff for an additional block vent. As for vac, I'll obviously be using a fitting off the turbo inlet pipe, but does anyone recommend a certain size hose? I want to have high vac, but I dont want the hose to be too small as to suck oil from the crankcase...?

 

[hottscennessey]

Joe- I'm sure the O2 vented catchcan can't help with our turbo problems.. maybe thats the solution???