Lean a good thing?

[87supraguy]

I thought 11-12 AFR (lean) was a no no at WOT? i've heard lean is mean (not if thats in a good way or bad) but i'm having a issue at WOT where i'm at about 15.8 and sometime goes to 16.3 at WOT... I read this on SF ( http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sh...ning-to-lean-on-the-1jz&p=8487220#post8487220 )which seems to be really bad based on what is being said. i have no issues, smoke or loss of power. my set up is big single Precision 60-1, 255 walbro, AEM wideband, AEM FIC (which i don't know how to work), Aeromotive FPR, stock injectors (looking to upgrade till 440cc). ONLY thing that makes me wonder is that my HKS wastgate is not sitting on the valve seat properly causing an exhaust leak which doesn't allow me to hit full boost till about 4k give or take. so in my mind is it safe to say that if i go WOT the TPS is telling the ECU to give more fuel but the air flow to match the fuel is not being delivered by the turbo lag causing a rich situation? i hope that made sense to someone. any help/insight/advice/clarification would be appreciated.

 

[Quin]

I don't even know where to start with this... The LOWER the number the RICHER the AFRs are, NOT the other way around. I can't believe you even went WOT again after you saw it running in the 15s. You need to get bigger injectors immediately, that thing is going to blow up. I'm honestly surprised it hasn't already. Stock injectors are barely big enough for stock twins. 440s wont be big enough for that turbo, either. You need to be looking at 550s, minimum. I'd be looking for more than that, honestly. Full boost at 4K on a 60-1 doesn't sound unreasonable.

The last half of that post makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Albert]

George. I got away with 440cc with my big T67. hell I even had the stock 370cc in there at one time. as long as youre running stock boost you will be okay. But quin is right, Id get 550cc to play it safe.

This however isnt your issue. its The FIC. Try unplugging it and using the jumper cable so your reading off the stock ECU. The FIC prob has a tune on it thats not for your setup. IF the last person to use it was on 550cc or bigger, then would be taking fuel out, since youre on 370cc, its still taking fuel out, when you need to be adding fuel.

you need to be around 11.2-11.5 WOT in boost.

You dont need the FIC just yet.

verify your AFPR is set at 40psi with the vacuum port un-done.

If all else fails, Look for kinks in the fuel lines.

Fix your exhuast leaks, fix your issues before you can move forward.

 

[Albert]

Oh and IMO. get rid of the FIC

 

[airhead04]

I don't even know where to start with this... The LOWER the number the RICHER the AFRs are, NOT the other way around. I can't believe you even went WOT again after you saw it running in the 15s. You need to get bigger injectors immediately, that thing is going to blow up. I'm honestly surprised it hasn't already. Stock injectors are barely big enough for stock twins. 440s wont be big enough for that turbo, either. You need to be looking at 550s, minimum. I'd be looking for more than that, honestly. Full boost at 4K on a 60-1 doesn't sound unreasonable.

The last half of that post makes no sense whatsoever.

I actually had an Autometer wideband that read backwards. I have NO idea why, but thats the way it read, even said thats how it was suppose to be in the instruction manual. lol. Imagine my confusion when I hit full boost and my gauge is pure red! I was like FUCK FUCK FUCK, ABORT AHH!!!!!

 

[Albert]

This is Why I only use the LC-1. Can program it for many different fuels. plus it has 2 outputs.

George after fixing some stuff, and trying the jumper etc etc. dont go do a full WOT pull. I would recommend a 4th gear roll, and brake boost, the instant you see 1psi or more the afr should pull immediatly into the 11s. if it doesnt, something is wrong, and you have to find out what before you go reving thru the gears at 15+afr. youll melt your pistons.

Stevens brother on his 1jz on stock twins was at like 17psi and his afr went up to 13-14s and melted 4 of his pistons doing a highway pull against a vette. This was on the FIC, and was untuned.

I def go standalone if you want to safeguard your motor. I know its more $$ than a piggy back, but the day you toast your 1jz, and have to buy another 2k motor, you could of spent 1k on a standalone. the Base Proefi isnt that much, Dustin just got it. Text me if you want to know more.

 

[87supraguy]

yeah this is justin's old harness and FIC and he did kill his 1j i think at the beginning of the year it was. fuel pressure is 42psi at WOT or no vacuum and 32psi at idle. i think the main reason i haven't killed it yet is because i'm still breaking in the new clutch set up and i'm not doing an crazy pulls. i'm going to take it to PSI this morning and see if they can tune/adjust the fuel curve. i think i'm going to go to the WTB section and see if anyone has some 440cc's for now. i don't want to do the 550 yet cause the resistor pack wiring. i hate dealing with wiring.

i just did a small test really quick, NONE WITH WOT CAUSE NOW I'M SUPER SCARED!!!

cold idle with FIC the Idle is at 12.3 and climbs up slowly to about 12.9-13,
warmed up Idle with FIC 14.8 and can move around to 15.3,
small load w/ FIC 15.8 - 16.9 again small load maybe 2k rpm.,

findings cold idle with no FIC it's at about 14.7 -14.9.
warmed up idle around a bit to 15.3.-16.7
small load again around 2k rpm 17.3 and maxing out AEM AFR guage going over 18.

THE FIC TUNE SEEMS TO BE HELPING, I KNOW IT'S NOT THE SAME ONE JUSTIN HAD BECAUSE IT WAS CLEARED BEFORE THIS TUNE WAS PUT ON (it was put on by PSI.)

none of my lines are kinked or pinched, FPR shows 32 psi at IDLE.

either way im going to take it in and see if we an figure out the lean condition with and without the FIC, hopefully i can use the FIC to limp around for a short while til tax season so i can get 550's and a full stand alone.

keep you guys posted.

 

[Vrank!!!]

I got some 440s, pm me

 

[Quin]

Dude, 440s are NOT big enough, don't even screw with them. A friend ran a T4 60-1 on his 7M, completely untuned with AFRs in the low 10s and hitting fuel cut a few times in the pull he still made 391rwhp at 10lbs. 440s wont support that.

I'm sure one of your buddies down there could help you with the wiring. It's not difficult to do.

 

[Albert]

Dude, 440s are NOT big enough, don't even screw with them. A friend ran a T4 60-1 on his 7M, completely untuned with AFRs in the low 10s and hitting fuel cut a few times in the pull he still made 391rwhp at 10lbs. 440s wont support that.

I'm sure one of your buddies down there could help you with the wiring. It's not difficult to do.

Your post doesnt make sense? 440s arent big enough cause your buddy ran them on his 7m and hit 10s? and fuel cut? 10s is RICH. Probably hit fuel cut because it was too rich, or he went past the stock 12psi? a 60-1 will hit fuel cut at lower PSI than the ctock ct26. Because its on a MAF system. (my 60-1 hit fuel cut at 8psi) 1jz are MAP. different setup.

THis guy is local. and I figured it out for him. his AFPR was set at 30psi no vac. suppose to be at 42psi no vac. car hit 11.5 under WOT. all he has to do now is fix his wastegate.

440s ARE big enough. I ran them, Clint ran them, Billy ran them. 7ms have 440s STOCK. 1jz have 370s STOCK. the 440 upgrade is like the 550 upgrade for 7ms. It will be plenty more a small 60-1 and only running 15psi.......

I ran 440s on my t67 1jz at 17psi. still had plenty of injector left.

 

[hvyman]

Shouldn't run an injector past 80% duty. Doesn't mean you can't but you shouldn't.

 

[IJ.]

Only if you're >

 

[87supraguy]

Only if you're >

haha agreed. thanks for all the feedback. i bought some 440's off a buddy in PHX. the new wastegate is on it's way also. once all fixed i'll get it tuned and dialed in.

 

[Quin]

Your post doesnt make sense? 440s arent big enough cause your buddy ran them on his 7m and hit 10s? and fuel cut? 10s is RICH. Probably hit fuel cut because it was too rich, or he went past the stock 12psi? a 60-1 will hit fuel cut at lower PSI than the ctock ct26. Because its on a MAF system. (my 60-1 hit fuel cut at 8psi) 1jz are MAP. different setup.

THis guy is local. and I figured it out for him. his AFPR was set at 30psi no vac. suppose to be at 42psi no vac. car hit 11.5 under WOT. all he has to do now is fix his wastegate.

440s ARE big enough. I ran them, Clint ran them, Billy ran them. 7ms have 440s STOCK. 1jz have 370s STOCK. the 440 upgrade is like the 550 upgrade for 7ms. It will be plenty more a small 60-1 and only running 15psi.......

I ran 440s on my t67 1jz at 17psi. still had plenty of injector left.

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. The point was a 60-1 turbo should make ~400whp even on low boost, as his did even despite his issues. That car had 550s and a Lex AFM, not that it was relevant. 440CC injectors on a six cylinder motor can't safely support that power. They're bigger than stock yes, definitely an upgrade yes, but they're still not big enough period. Bumping up the FP is a band aid fix.

If you're shooting for 11.5 A/FRs, it takes 231 lbs/hr of fuel to hit 400rwhp. 440CC injectors sticking to a safe 80% duty cycle can only supply 200.97. You can do the math yourself if you want.

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?147015-Injector-sizing-guide.

That's a really odd wideband David lol

 

[87supraguy]

400rwhp? i don't think i'm anywhere near that. either way even he states " This is only a guide and should not be taken as written in stone." right now with the slight adjustments made i'm at about 12.2 afr. i don't see how another 70cc's wouldn't bring the AFR where needed as Albert states.

p.s. i was an autozone autometer baby too once haha maybe this is where the confusion came from.

 

[Quin]

You have to take injector duty cycle into consideration. You're running a 20 year old injector at or very near the ragged edge.

 

[Albert]

The FIC tells you duty cycle george. Maybe Data log it?

Im almost sure you wont hit 80% on the 440s if youre at a 8-15psi range. I dont believe I did and I was on a bigger turbo.

---------- Post added at 06:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 AM ----------

Bumping up the FP is a band aid fix.

Correct. you shouldnt do this. But if its incorrectly set at 30psi with no vac. youre gonna have problems. Once the vac is on the FP will bump down to the 20s or so. you want it at 40-42psi no vac.

 

[destrux]

Wait, going to full rich as soon as you cross the 0psi threshold isn't normal from what I've seen... Usually You don't need to run a full rich 12:1 AFR till you get up above about 35kpa (5 psi). I usually taper AFR from 14.7 to 12:1 between -35 kpa to +35 kpa manifold pressure, depending on what the knock threshold is and what makes the best power. Sudden AFR changes will make the tune feel "odd and lumpy".

From what I've seen it seems these engines can take quite the lean AFR's without knocking to death. I suppose high EGT's are what kills most of them.

 

[Albert]

yeah, when I put my 550s in I had it at 12.1 afr

 

[87supraguy]

the 440's will be here tomorrow i'll throw them on and we'll see what the duty cycle is with the FIC.