Leaking water between head and block, Seen this before?

[tsupranami]

My first guess is a lack of clamping, either not equally (warped surfaces, damaged threads, etc.) or not adequately (bolts too long, washers too thin, holes not deep enough, etc.).

I'd be tempted to measure the bolts fully seated in the block, then measure the depth of the holes in the head, to make sure the bolts are able to clamp the head down correctly, prior to pulling the motor. Not a likely scenario, but you never know...?!?! It's free and easy, that's why I would do it.

Second guess is contamination of the surfaces during assembly, but not likely given the descriptions so far.

Third most likely, if it is the head gasket leaking and not a hose, is cracks (block and/or head). There, I said it. Didn't want to, but I had to...

Maganflux, and/or pressure test will hopefully eliminate this possibility.

Like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle once said, "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."

 

[grimreaper]

good point with the studs, I'll double check them. Pre assembly, and on assembly every one of them screwed in smoothly ( a LOT of time was spent cleaning the holes). Im betting warped block. 5 out of 6 cylinders where leaking in the same spot on the exhaust side.. Maybe I'll get "lucky" and the machine shop decked the head cock eyed. Possible? I'm not savy with what machine shops do or how they do it.

buds stopping by after work tomorrow with a straight edge.

 

[tsupranami]

Cockeyed head job? I had one of those while I was in England. No wait, that was a Cockneyed head job (LOL)!

Does anyone know how to check if the head surface is perpendicular to the bolt holes through the head?

Yeah, and depending on what machine the shop used (CNC, Mill, belt sander), it could be crooked. Never seen one before, but...

 

[Nick M]

Does anyone know how to check if the head surface is perpendicular to the bolt holes through the head?

Besides a high dollar machined straight edge from Snap-On or similar tool pimp? It looks like a yard stick, and you check with a .001" feeler guage.

 

[tsupranami]

Besides a high dollar machined straight edge from Snap-On or similar tool pimp? It looks like a yard stick, and you check with a .001" feeler guage.

Wouldn't this be used for checking the flatness of the head, (or block or whatever) using the feeler gauge between the straight edge and the head surface?

If he had a cock-eyed head job, how could you tell if the head was ground off one side more than the other, i.e. the head surface is not perpendicular to the bolt holes and not parallel with the cam cover surface? I would think there is a square of sorts (like a carpenters square) that could be used, but where would you find one?

Is this something that a machine shop can check? If so, what do they use?

 

[89supra7mgte]

Feeler gauge in between edge and head or block. As far as squareness goes you could find a way to measure the head surface to the valve cover seal area on all four corners and through out the sides? Would need some sort of caliper, digital or whatever. From there you could determine about how square it is given you get an accurate reading?

 

[tsupranami]

Feeler gauge in between edge and head or block. As far as squareness goes you could find a way to measure the head surface to the valve cover seal area on all four corners and through out the sides? Would need some sort of caliper, digital or whatever. From there you could determine about how square it is given you get an accurate reading?

Ahh, yes, good approach. Measure from cam cover surface to head surface on all four corners. I hadn't thought of that, obviously.

Thanks.

Another free check method for you, grim?

 

[Poodles]

Screw stud in, check for square with the block surface...

 

[89supra7mgte]

That would work also, possibly with head off also? Think measurements might give you more a little more accuracy though

 

[thedave925]

Poodles method is obvious though- the studs are snug in the head holds and with no gasket to crush unevenly, you'll get a gap at one edge or another.
Then when you pick the head off the block, leave the studs there. If the head binds on the studs, you'll know it.

The method a shop uses to deck the head with a mill is setting the head on a surface, putting a level on top of the head and squaring off the platform the head is on, then starting the mill. Its basically a large diameter wheel with a bit protuding at one side, set horizontally. It spins to a chosen rpm and sweeps side to side at a desired rate. Slow the sweep down to create a lower Roughness Average. The mill should be attended during operation because dialing in cut height is not something set and done in one pass; its important to not taking off too much/little.

If the first dickhead milled it crooked (didn't perfect the level or double check after every adjustment of the mill table) but the head is flat, the next dude will use that same crooked flat surface of the head to set the mill platform and just continue removing material instead of fixing your issue.

SO, the cam cradles should all be the same height.
Setting the head on a perfectly level table gasket side down and setting the level on the cam cradles (mounting surface for cam caps, no cam caps) would reveal if its really off also.

 

[Nick M]

Wouldn't this be used for checking the flatness of the head, (or block or whatever) using the feeler gauge between the straight edge and the head surface?

Yes. If you are implying his head bolt holes were cut sideways (an exageration to make a point), then it would have never sealed in its life.

 

[grimreaper]

heads at another shop, they said its flat. When i get it back I'll take some measurements of my own. Waiting on straight edge (had to order one). The shop said they have seen composite gaskets that have sat for to long and failed to seal. Any input?
My gasket was not tacky or sticky like some have described the new OEM head gaskets.

Another user error that might be the cause : When i re tqed the head post assembly, i only went up 1 ftlb. The studs never creaked and the 1/8th of a turn loosening step put all the studs at 60 ftlbs starting tq (digital tq wrench). Could this compromise the gasket?

 

[grimreaper]

blocks warped. MEASUREMENTS IN POST # 36
Rich at SIP will be building the "new" motor. Still deciding on pistons for 5-600hp (future target) shame too, this is the new gen block with extra ribs!

Never realized how thin .002 is!

 

[polobai]

stick with it and build it up! We must save the 7ms...its like they are getting endangered!

 

[GrimJack]

That's not warped, that's waffled. Should still be repairable, though - better check the cylinders for being waffled too, though.

For pistons, you can't beat JE imo.

 

[grimreaper]

Looks like its a bit twisted as well. I looked back over my notes:

I 1-6 = .003, .007, .007, .006, .0025, .003-.004
E 1-6 = .004, .004, .003-.004, .004-.005, .007 (between 5 & 6 is .008), .007-.006
center line between the bores, starting between 1& 2= .003, .004, .004, .003, .005

glad to know its repairable. I dont know how to measure the bores or have the tools. I trust the builder can make it right though.