How to deal with an unsatisfied buyer?

[Kai]

Okay - rundown of the situation is....

I sold one of my Supra's the other week, to someone for £700. Originally it was advertised for £750. I did them a favour since I knew them a bit, and knocked fifty off the price.

Now, it was very clearly explained that the car had no MOT or Tax, and would need welding work doing, and engine work (exhaust gasket) to pass the MOT. Pictures of the rust, the interior & exterior were sent, and they seemed perfectly happy.

I even sent a 2 page document outlining all the problems with the vehicle to re-iterate what had already been discussed on the phone.

Along with that, I put in the boot, a brand new exhaust gasket (OEM Toyota), new Downpipe Gasket (also OEM) & about £50 worth of studs, nuts & washers for the job (again, all Toyota parts), threw in £80 worth of Sony Stereo & speakers, 3 gallons of Dexron II ATF & a basic toolkit.

Today, I get a pissy email about how theres this that and the other wrong with the car. Two of the issues are minor. The other is them saying 'its got a blown head gasket' despite not having performed either a gas test, or a compression test, and there being no sign of the coolant overheating, or mixing with oil.

They want me to refund them half the cost of the car.

A quick scan of eBay shows that the same model as the one I sold, even in poor condition, sells for at least £600 with no tax & test. I think I was being pretty generous, all round.

Is this a case of 'jog on, pal' or am I in the wrong for thinking they're trying to pull a fast one on me?

 

[iruyle]

If I were in your position, I would probably rather offer to undo the deal than take half off. If the guy is truly that unhappy with the deal, I woudn't saddle him with it. It does sound like a bit of a weasel job, though. If you can make a reasonable case to the buyer that you laid out all the details ahead of time, and they can agree with that much, I can't see them honestly trying to renegotiate the price after the fact. That's fishy. I doubt he'd let it go for 350 as it sits. Why should you?
I'd just offer him the door and sell it to the next guy. After all, it is your asset and it's demonstrably worth the price you got. "Sorry you aren't happy with it. If it isn't worth 700 to you, here's your cash back. It's worth way more than 350 to me." If he's serious, he should at least settle closer to the middle. So if you've been trying to get rid of it for a while or if there is considerable expense in bringing it back, at least you won't be giving it away.

 

[IndigoMKII]

Screw that, you showed him/her everything wrong with it AND gave him/her one hell of a deal. He/she knew what he/she was getting in to and now he/she just wants to get a little more from you, seeing how much you've already done.

I'd explain to him that he/she knew what was wrong with it and everything was documented BEFORE the purchase and he/she seemed happy with it. Keep your money.

 

[CyFi6]

Cars are sold as is and the buyer understands this when buying. Getting unexpected problems when you buy a used car comes with the territory, but it seems you went the extra mile to inform them of any issues. If they are not satisfied, tough, he should have been more thorough before buying to make sure it was exactly what he wanted. More than anything I would be afraid of him ripping you off at this point. What if he ran the car hot and blew the head gasket and now is trying to blame it on you? You will end up being the one footing the cost in the end if you try to be the nice guy. Not to mention you said "the other week". If he were to complain it should be within one or two days.

 

[snowman]

I bought a turbo shell for a 1000 bucks. The kid was living with mom and dad, I thought I was doing him a favor at the least. Had some crap rusty cars and I figured I'd help HIM out. That's friggin people for you today. Give an inch take a mile.

 

[Poodles]

Car has left your hands, they could easily have shimmed the wastegate and blown the headgasket. (or done any number of stupid things)

Not your problem.

 

[Kai]

This is what i typed up to go with the car:

Things that need doing:

Weld the arch + floor support.
Strip the paint around the centre mount of the spoiler, repaint and refit rubber seal.
Refit the front arch trim pieces (before the sill trim), proper clips from Toyota are about 50p each.

For engine service, the oil in it is 10w40 semi-synthetic, and the oil filter on it is less than 500 miles old. It's a proper Japanese Lexus LS400 one (larger capacity) whenever you do replace it. Always fill the oil to 1/2 litre MORE than the owners manual says.
It had brand new NGK BCPR7E-S spark plugs fitted about 3000 miles ago.
The biggest thing that needs to be sorted, is the exhaust manifold to cylinder head gasket. It's in the back of the car. It's brand new, from Toyota in Houston, Texas (£25 instead of the £89 they want to charge you here). Along with it, are all the new studs & nuts you'll need. Remember to fit new copper crush washers on the oil feed line that goes to the turbocharger. There's a new turbo elbow to downpipe gasket included, too.
The only other thing to do, is the valve clearances. The 7M engines aren't hydraulically adjusted, they have to be manually checked & adjusted every 30,000 miles. It's well overdue. The sluggish response is due, in part, to the valve clearances being out of spec (you can hear the tick-tick-tick through the valve covers), and partly due to the exhaust manifold gasket.

Power Steering fluid probably should be replaced - DO NOT USE stuff labelled as "Power Steering Fluid" - the system uses the same DEXRON II as the Automatic Transmission. To change the fluid is a simple 30 minute job. If you don't use DEXRON - you'll kill the pump, and they're not cheap, even second hand!
Transmission fluid could do with a replacement, not just a drain & refill, but a proper full 10 litre evac and refill with new fluid. The stuff thats in there is about 30,000 miles old and could do with a change. £100 worth of the correct fluid is in the boot.
Front Brake discs have less than 3000 miles on them. Pads still have plenty of meat left. They're OEM Toyota ones.
Rear Brake discs have less than 500 miles on them, and brand spanking new pads. Handbrake shoes still have plenty of meat on them, but might need a simple adjustment with a screwdriver for the MOT (wheel off, screwdriver through hole in the brake disc 'hat', turn left or right to adjust).
The boot carpet is unfortunately a bit manky, and its too far gone to save. Previous owner to Sherif spilled battery acid on it, and it's been eating it away for years. Every time i open the boot, theres more carpet missing

There are a couple of them on eBay for about £25 though, and again, it's easy to fix.
Jack & toolkit are in the rear pocket in the boot.

As mentioned, the car is totally standard, nothing has been tweaked, or fiddled with. No mods at all. Please look after it - it'd be nice to see it restored. Obviously, if/when you want to information & advice, i'm more than happy to help, and for parts, either second hand or new, i know where to get them from.

Don't forget though, it's a 22 year old car. In its day, it was one of the most advanced things on the road, but we're still talking 2nd generation EFi system with a mixed 8/4-bit CPU controlling everything, with 16kB of memory. It's still 3 litres. It's therefore going to be thirsty, compared to a Clio. Expect, after a service, for it to do 18 to 20mpg, depending on driving style. Classic insurance for anyone over 25 years old on these, now.
The indicator stalk is on the right, rather than the left. This may take a few days to get used to.

Everything electrical in the car works as it should. Standard ISO plugs have been fitted to the stereo system, and the stock amplifier & speaker setup have been replaced with a decent Sony headunit & speakers. The box for the stereo is in the boot, and the manual is in the glove box. I've included an iPod FM adaptor in the glovebox.

I think thats fair enough information, plus the fact they KNEW it had no MOT or TAX on it. Would you say i misrepresented the vehicle?

 

[fixitman04]

tell him to beat feet! you owe him nothing. sold as is with lots of extra effort by you.

 

[SupraMario]

Tell him to take a leap...seriously people who do this shit annoy the ever living fuck out of me...

 

[suprahero]

Caveat emptor

 

[MkIII FTW]

I wouldn't even humor the conversation of a refund of any amount. Sounds like the guy wanted to blame someone else when they realized they were in over their head. Give me a break, the fact is the faults of the vehicle were clearly laid out to the buyer and therefore were recognized and accepted upon the sell of the car. They got what they paid for......tough.

 

[Grandavi]

Simple really...

tell him to bring you back the car and you will refund him 1/2 the purchase price. Its basically what he is offering you.. but reversed. If its fair... its fair.

Otherwise, tell him you were up front with him and can't be bothered past that point.

 

[IJ.]

Caveat emptor

x2, was thinking this as I read through the thread, tell him to fuck off, fucking moron.

 

[iruyle]

Simple really...

tell him to bring you back the car and you will refund him 1/2 the purchase price. Its basically what he is offering you.. but reversed. If its fair... its fair.

Otherwise, tell him you were up front with him and can't be bothered past that point.

This. This is precisely what I was saying earlier. Tell him he's bought it and it's his, but if he thinks it's only worth 350, you'll be happy to buy it from him for that. Your description was more than thorough. Plus you used the word "manky". I'm going to start using that daily and see if it catches on over here.

 

[BrettMRC]

Hi guys, I've actually joined this forum to try and get some good info and make a contribution - but given Kai is cheerfully defaming me up and down the interweb my first post is going to be on this thread.

The general condition of the car was made quite clear during conversation with Kai - on most areas he was quite correct, and £700 paid unseen for an un-taxed, un-mot'd Supra located in a different country seemed a reasonable price, so I told the GF to go for it.

However, there is certainly no chance she would have purchased the car had she been aware of some of the outstanding problems. One being the head gasket, the other being the extensive rot in the boot/spare wheel well. (I have now read Kai's posts concerning the Blue Supra on various forums... the descriptions on here differ somewhat from the overall condition described over the phone)

For the record: Kai has stated he checked the fluid levels before delivering the car to the port in St.Malo, when the car reached the port in Portsmouth the same day I had to put in nearly 3 litres of coolant to bring it up to the correct level. Further investigation at the workshop showed coolant present in cylinders 1 & 2, thusly we concluded that HGF was the most likely cause.

I also fail to understand how the state of the spare wheel well was missed, considering there are pictures around showing the car jacked up at the rear for a brake job.

I'm under no illusions regarding the problems older cars bring - I've run and restored many 80's Jap cars - no car is rust free. However when the seller tells you there are 3 areas of rust, and nothing else you tend to believe them. (Especially in the case of Kai who I understand is considered something of an expert and a good knowledge base on the MkIII's)

However you can't claim to be a font of knowledge on one hand, and then claim to know next to nothing about some fairly significant issues on a car that has been routinely mentioned as your daily driver. (Unless you're not a car nut, but I don't think there are many people on here who claim to be indifferent to the state of their car)

Overall this is a real shame - I tried to contact you quietly via email to see if you were interested in making good some of the increased costs via a partial refund - and from there you seem to have done a pretty good job of assassinating your character and to a certain extent my own. (Not to mention the downright rudeness on retrorides)

Clearly you feel like you have no case to answer, so be it.

Sarah and I will start a build thread on here to cover the restoration of the car - but I felt it important to get the facts across in the first instance. (FYI The head is now off and the gasket is breached in several places)

 

[IndigoMKII]

Sorry but I can't give you the benefit of the doubt for even fully reading your post due to the fact you got such a deal on this car AND you had the balls to ask for a partial refund while keeping the car.

 

[BrettMRC]

I respect your point of view, in my opinion the partial refund would have been a token gesture nothing more.
(And sorry if I'm being thick here - but does this mean you read my post, or decided TL;DR?)

 

[suggestable]

It wasn't Brett that bought the car from Kai, it was me. We both feel Kai was dishonest as he claimed to have checked the fluid levels before heading to the port. It should have been immediately obvious that there was a problem as the coolant bottle and radiator were almost empty when the bonnet was opened. We also feel that a self-proclaimed "expert" would have spotted the head gasket failure and was simply trying to conceal this detail from the write-up he gave with the car. The boot being rotten was also a nasty surprise. Asking for a partial refund was only to ensure I can afford to bring the car up to scratch as, right now, it's far worse than described or implied.

The work will be done regardless of cost. As Brett mentioned, we'll be putting up a build log shortly.

Sarah

 

[MightyAl]

Sorry but I can't give you the benefit of the doubt for even fully reading your post due to the fact you got such a deal on this car AND you had the balls to ask for a partial refund while keeping the car.

Being untaxed and unMOT'd is a huge deal for a car in the UK. Most people there wouldn't touch a car that had neither of these just because of the unforseen costs that can arise. I don't think we have anything like MOT in the states. It is basically like trying to get an untitled car back on the road here. You get a steep discount for the risk.

 

[Kai]

I have never once "proclaimed to be an expert" - either to you, or anyone else - I've owned 4 of these cars now, i know a fair sight more than YOU do about them. This is a fact. Not a boast, but a plain, simple fact.

It's a case of CAVEAT EMPTOR. You bought the car, with no MOT, or TAX, *KNOWING* it had problems. I threw in about £100 worth of spares & DEXRON ATF, i was as up front about the condition of the car as i could be - pointed out all the areas of rust i was AWARE OF. I concealed NOTHING. Repeating this to you ad nauseum seems to do nothing. It's like banging my head against a brick wall.

If you don't want the car anymore - tough. If you want your money back - tough, you got a fair deal on it. The car was SOLD AS SEEN. You're whining and complaining for no valid reason.

As for the comment on 'cheerful defamation' - not once, in any thread have i EVER mentioned names. It is only your intervention in said threads that results in your identity being known. If you have a problem with that - tough, you bring it on yourself.

This is a question thread, much like the one on Retro Rides was. If you have beef with me, i don't care, but don't de-rail threads on this forum.