Holset HE351VE (No 56k and tons of pictures)

[gennro]

HAHA!!! Same here. But it sounds like the payoff could be very nice. I like the idea and would like to know more on the setup and see more guys go this route. How much are these turbos used?

I payed 180 bucks for the turbo. Its really a simple setup as of now, but a lot of work to make it work.

 

[Freshmaker]

Well I have done some research on this turbo/setup now and here is what i found: I want one haha

As far as controllers go, there are sure some interesting ones out there haha. I saw a DIY PCB, one with 2 springs, a cable and an actuator, and 1 guy with a setup like yours but with the push/pull rod through his motor mount haha.

 

[jmcboost]

Somebody should make an electronic interface/controller to integrate with the factory controller. Would be a lot of work but could pay off.

 

[whitemike]

I'd like to see an electronic boost solenoid, controlled by some type of computer. Programming a computer to open it at the exact time/rates you want would be ideal!

 

[jmcboost]

Yep, Does anybody know what controls the VGT controller on the stock vehicle this comes on? If its the stock ECU, it would be tough, but if its a separate module (based on boost pressure or something) it would be cool to install it with the stock VGT controller and computer part.

 

[MDCmotorsports]

Yep, Does anybody know what controls the VGT controller on the stock vehicle this comes on? If its the stock ECU, it would be tough, but if its a separate module (based on boost pressure or something) it would be cool to install it with the stock VGT controller and computer part.

The stock setup has the controller on the turbo itself IIRC. That electro-mechanical system then talks to the computer on board.

Take a look at Fleece Performance here in Indiana. He has created a vane interface controller.

[video=youtube;7EDCKvkQoaE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EDCKvkQoaE[/video]

[video=youtube;ntGDWAtN9jM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntGDWAtN9jM[/video]

 

[tissimo]

No not at all. Some of the VGT systems can see up to 5-9lbs of pressure in the manifold at idle. Although on a diesel, have seen one idle (500-800rpm) @ 4 psi on the boost gauge.

Diesel is a much different from a gas engine. With a 2.5L (even 3) you'll never see the exhaust energy to spin a decent sized turbo to see any significant positive pressure. If you were able to get the turbine rpms to flow a decent amount of air the turbine would be so small that it wouldn't make any power.

 

[gennro]

Yeah the vanes all the way closed it doesn't build any pressure the compressor stops spinning at that point. Now if you put it on something 4.0L plus you might be able too...........

The stock controller in the dodges is in the PCM (dodge speak for Power train control module) and it communicates via the canbus protocol. So to be able to to figure out to control it you would need a 07 and newer dodge cummins and reverse engineer the signals going to and from. Now the megasquirt does do canbus comm. Also the other problem is for the turbo to be faced up like it is I had to do some trimming to were the stock controller set to rotate the turbine housing so I couldn't even use the stock controller in my current configuration.

Now what I cam thinking is finding a stepper motor that can handle some high temps and building a controller away from the turbo and communicate its info to it via canbus from my megasquirt.

Canbus btw allows you to get TPS, coolent, rpm, MAP, and etc to another controller without tons of extra wire.

Oh yeah..... may of found what I needed to do this with http://www.msgpio.com/manuals/index.htm
This already has a 4 wire stepper motor controller built in and 4 VR inputs so I can measure the shaft speed of the turbo.
Also has 4 more spark outputs so I could run COP if I wanted to.
Also learned how to program in C awhile back and have plenty of C books to help me program it.

Man megasquirt is badass....... you guys have no idea.

Alright now someone find me a high temp bi-polar stepper motor that is small and produces enough torque for this application.

 

[Supracentral]

Gennro, I've got to give you credit, that's amazingly cool. Back when I was trying to do this none of these resources (including the Megasquirt) were available at the time, -- you've done a really good job.

And yes, I've played with Megasquit a bit since and few rough edges aside, it's an amazing way to control a car's systems. I've actually pondered swapping the MKIV over to it this year.

 

[gennro]

Gennro, I've got to give you credit, that's amazingly cool. Back when I was trying to do this none of these resources (including the Megasquirt) were available at the time, -- you've done a really good job.

And yes, I've played with Megasquit a bit since and few rough edges aside, it's an amazing way to control a car's systems. I've actually pondered swapping the MKIV over to it this year.

Thanks Mike.
Yeah with MS3 out now and soon to have the MSX expansion board you can have 8 seq fuel/spark outputs with 16x16 VE/spark tables.

I am thinking though to have to get the GPIO board and set up a controller for the HE351VE. Now I just need another HE351VE, MS2 and GPIO board and a Jimstim so I can bench test all of this.

I'm pretty sure EGTs and turbo shaft speed plays the biggest role in controlling the HE351VE.

TPS can be used to control when the vanes are wide open for cruise and closed vanes when building pressure.

EGTs and shaft speed should be in direct relation to each other cause as the shaft speed increases, EGTs should increase as well due to the restriction so blending the two values to control the opening of the vanes. Because if the vanes don't open fast enough you could get some dangerous EGTs and shaft speeds.

Does this sound right to anyone else?

 

[Freshmaker]

I would set it up a lot like a fuel map.

Do RPM vs Map pressure as your map
%throttle as a modifier so its zero under 50% and 1 over 50%
Use your EGT as a safety modifier so its 1 at all conditions below critical, then start backing it off by percentages as it gets to close to your critical temp, and 100% open if that temp is reached. careful not to start backing it off to early tho
You could do that same about shaft speed if you worried about that

I think EGTs and shaft speed are related, but i don't think its going to be 1:1. In a hard top gear pull wouldn't the shaft speed top off with the EGTs continuing to rise?

 

[gennro]

Ever look at an compressor map and wonder why the HE351 has a shaft speed sensor? Like on a GT35r the efficiency is best around 110500 rpm. So if you can keep the turbo in its efficiency range and keep the shaft at that rpm you will get the best flow. So really has nothing to do with MAP pressure. Now if you can control the vanes to keep the turbo in its efficiency range then you will flow the most air and make the most power with out overheating your air and generating high EGTs.

TPS would just be used to control when the vanes will be wide open for cruise then closing down the vanes to build pressure.

Now thinking about it EGTs have nothing to do with this at all cause that can be controlled by fuel and timing.

Stepper motor http://www.robotshop.com/rbsoy14-soyo-unipolar-stepper-motor.html

Alright been doing some thinking......

Stepper motor, and use a micro switch to tell when the stepper motor is at the home position.

Lets say it takes 10 steps at 1.8 degrees of rotation from the stepper motor to go from full open and full closed on the vanes.
So at 10 steps the micro switch will engage so when the vehicle is turned off then turned back on it will home back to full open and engage the micro switch.

Or maybe don't need a micro switch at all cause I am pretty sure I can store the last known position in the flash. So if last known position is 5 then when the car is started the motor will step +5 to go to full open. I'm pretty sure I am going to add the micro switch so when it starts up it will home back to the micro in case the stepper is moved while powered off.

So basically will need to keep the turbo in its efficiency range by referencing shaft rpm and EGT because if the vanes are to far open the EGTs will drop but if the vanes are closed to much the EGTs will rise rapidly meaning to much restriction and the compressor is making to much hot air.

 

[MDCmotorsports]

Not much to add to your thought process other than this:

The Duramax VGT turbos have this "homing process" you speak of, every time you turn the key on, engine off. This keeps the veins of the VGT system clean and free from soot.

The Ford 6.0 VGT turbos DO NOT have this "homing process" you speak of, and subsequently they have a high report problem to the dealer of boost problems.

 

[gennro]

Not much to add to your thought process other than this:

The Duramax VGT turbos have this "homing process" you speak of, every time you turn the key on, engine off. This keeps the veins of the VGT system clean and free from soot.

The Ford 6.0 VGT turbos DO NOT have this "homing process" you speak of, and subsequently they have a high report problem to the dealer of boost problems.

Yes that will be incorporated in this design...........

I have 90% of the parts I need to really get this controller going. First the controller will work directly off shaft RPM using the built in VR sensor. I will be using a Atmel ATMega644 40-pin 8-bit microcontroller so this will be a standalone controller. Along with a LCD redout to tell you turbo shaft speed, vane position, throttle position, and soon EGT. There will be a 9-pin RS-232 (serial) interface to change the paramaters etc. Then some safety features such as critical shaft speed warning, high EGT warning, and a feature to let you see the highest numbers reached.

I have a small stepper motor right now that will be used to prototype with but will be getting a stronger more expensive one to do the actual actuation of the vanes. http://www.linengineering.com/LinE/ has a great line of stepper motors that should do the job well.

As I get more parts I will keep this thread updated as I figure more stuff out.

This is how it will work.

TPS = Throttle Position Sensor
TurSS= Turbo shaft speed
TarSS= Target shaft speed
EGT= Exhaust gas Temperature

So when TPS is below 20% the vanes will be wide open allowing for low EGT.
When TPS goes above 20% the vanes will close down which will increase TurSS.
Then as TurSS rises to TarSS and when TarSS is reached and TurSS keeps rising the vanes will be opened more to reduce
TurSS back down to TarSS.

Then if TPS drops back below 20% the controller will wait about 2 seconds before opening the vanes to 100%.

There should be a Hysteresis of about 5k to 15k rpm to prevent the stepper from over heating from stepping to fast and to prevent rapid changes.

Later on I'll add in EGT circuit as a safety to prevent burning holes from to high of EGTs for a safety.

Also the parts to do this should be no more then $150 once it is all said and done.

Alright MDCmotorports can you find me a compressor map for the HE351VE?

 

[Supracentral]

Best I could find so far, unfortunately its just the rough outline without any efficiency islands:

To convert from the flow rates shown at the bottom multiply by ~.75 to get approx lb/min. Shows 66-67lb/min.

 

[gennro]

Best I could find so far, unfortunately its just the rough outline without any efficiency islands:

To convert from the flow rates shown at the bottom multiply by ~.75 to get approx lb/min. Shows 66-67lb/min.

Thats the only one I could find so far also. I just need to be able to figure out the max flow at what rpm.

Also just bought a junk HE351VE for prototype purposes.

SCORE!

Looks about 920 CFM so 920 x .069 = 63.48 lbs/min at about 100,000 to 110,000 rpm.

Looks like a good map to me and the best one I have found so far. Anything over 118,000 will just make hot air so probably keep the max rpm to 120,000.

 

[CyFi6]

No not at all. Some of the VGT systems can see up to 5-9lbs of pressure in the manifold at idle. Although on a diesel, have seen one idle (500-800rpm) @ 4 psi on the boost gauge.

Im having a hard time understanding how you can have 5-9PSI of boost in the manifold of a gas engine with a throttle plate at idle, please explain, im no expert here! How much boost pressure would you need pre-throttle plate to be able to get that much air into the engine at idle?

The more i think about it the more it confuses me, if you have more air going in you need more fuel and in turn your idle speed would greatly increase. On a diesel it makes sense as fuel can be pulled back to decrease the idle speed, but if you did that onaa gas engine the a/f ratio would be extremely lean.

 

[gennro]

Update:

Well I am having issues trying to read the VR sensor on the Holset. So I ordered a LM1815N to hopefully read the signal and convert it to a TTL output.

That is the circuit I am going to try to use to read the signal with.


And a pic of the bread boards!

 

[gennro]

Alright a little update.

Just figured out a better way to mechanically control the vanes.

This setup allows the spring pressure to be adjusted and how far the vanes close.
The before setup the vanes opened way to fast and the turbo lagged real bad.

But whats cool the way this turbo is setup is the vanes will open with just exhuast pressure by themselves.
Now with this setup the turbo spools twice as fast as before.
I should have some datalogs soon of the turbo spool up time as soon as I can get out on the highway to to do pulls because I'm doing almost 60mph before I shift into second gear and it gets their really fast.

Also should be going to the dyno soon.

Also when I had the turbo off I had it apart and absolutly no carbon buildup so it seems this turbo will hold up extremely well on a gasoline engine. This is my other HE351ve I bought and paid 95 bucks for =)

 

[SeanMcCabe]

Wow this is pretty neat stuff. Curious though, as I haven't seen it throughout the entire thread, but whats the max boost you see with this turbo?

And make sure to get vids of the dyno!