Hissing noise when brake pedal pressed
- Thread starter CajunKenny
- Start date
TSRM test for Booster only good when all other brake sytems are fully operational. It WILL FAIL ALL BOOSTER TESTS until the brakes can hold hydraulic pressure per specs. If you are still pumping to acheive pressure, engine on or off, it is a leak in the hydraulic system (per TSRM). Not enough to leak hydraulic fluid out, but enough to allow air back in, giving the soft pedal on initial application.
The fact the the pedal goes to the floor when you start it explicitly demonstrates thet the Booster IS working. If it were not air tight, it would not provide adequate assistance and the pedal would remain firm. The hissing is the one way check valve designed to keep pressure in the system in the event the engine dies while driving. This reserve pressure gives you one pedal application at full pressure, one more at half that pressure, and one more at half of the half. This is standard safety in all power-assisted hydraulic brake systems. The hissing you hear is the reserve pressure being released or the valve opening and equalizing pressure.
You now have a vacuum tester. Pull the booster hose, apply vacuum, and watch for it to drop. If it drops, booster is leaking. If it holds, booster is fine. But this is premature. If the system will not hold hydraulic pressure without air infiltration, then the boosters operation is secondary and not of concern until full hydraulic pressure can be acheived (no soft pedal anytime).
Per the TSRM, you have a leak. It is either in the master (leaking past the pressure piston seal) or at a caliper connection, or quite likely, the brake bleeder valves.
One problem with the pump-and-hold technique for bleeding brakes is the possible (dare I say likely) contamination by a minor backflow of debris from the brake bleeder into the bleeder seat area. The debris gets ground into the seat during the tighten-loosen process and destroys the seats ability to seal airtight.
This is why I always use forced bleeding systems, either pressure or vacuum. This way the fluid only travels one way, dirty-out, clean-in, no questions.
I'll bet dollars to donuts the TSRM is spot on.....you still have a leak. That's the easy part.
Finding where it is is the challenge.
Go old school and get the junctions, bleeder valves, and any other line you have reassembled wet with brake fluid. Then look for the bubbles at these critical sealing areas when someone presses the brake pedal (engine on for full pressure).
Bubbles equal leak. No bubbles means no pressure, therefore most likely a master unable to generate required pressure.
---------- Post added at 11:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:18 AM ----------
When was the first time you took the bleeders all the way out? What did they look like at the seat area? Did you use new crush washers at the front caliper banjo fittings?
Did you have the lines capped while painting the calipers? How much fluid leaked while the calipers were off? I could I see the master failing only if the master completely dried out while sitting. If it had fluid the entire time, the seals should remain perfectly intact.
99% of the time when I take a working system apart and it doesn't work when I put it back together, it is because I did something wrong (shortcut, inferior parts, etc).
The fact the the pedal goes to the floor when you start it explicitly demonstrates thet the Booster IS working. If it were not air tight, it would not provide adequate assistance and the pedal would remain firm. The hissing is the one way check valve designed to keep pressure in the system in the event the engine dies while driving. This reserve pressure gives you one pedal application at full pressure, one more at half that pressure, and one more at half of the half. This is standard safety in all power-assisted hydraulic brake systems. The hissing you hear is the reserve pressure being released or the valve opening and equalizing pressure.
You now have a vacuum tester. Pull the booster hose, apply vacuum, and watch for it to drop. If it drops, booster is leaking. If it holds, booster is fine. But this is premature. If the system will not hold hydraulic pressure without air infiltration, then the boosters operation is secondary and not of concern until full hydraulic pressure can be acheived (no soft pedal anytime).
Per the TSRM, you have a leak. It is either in the master (leaking past the pressure piston seal) or at a caliper connection, or quite likely, the brake bleeder valves.
One problem with the pump-and-hold technique for bleeding brakes is the possible (dare I say likely) contamination by a minor backflow of debris from the brake bleeder into the bleeder seat area. The debris gets ground into the seat during the tighten-loosen process and destroys the seats ability to seal airtight.
This is why I always use forced bleeding systems, either pressure or vacuum. This way the fluid only travels one way, dirty-out, clean-in, no questions.
I'll bet dollars to donuts the TSRM is spot on.....you still have a leak. That's the easy part.
Finding where it is is the challenge.
Go old school and get the junctions, bleeder valves, and any other line you have reassembled wet with brake fluid. Then look for the bubbles at these critical sealing areas when someone presses the brake pedal (engine on for full pressure).
Bubbles equal leak. No bubbles means no pressure, therefore most likely a master unable to generate required pressure.
---------- Post added at 11:26 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:18 AM ----------
When was the first time you took the bleeders all the way out? What did they look like at the seat area? Did you use new crush washers at the front caliper banjo fittings?
Did you have the lines capped while painting the calipers? How much fluid leaked while the calipers were off? I could I see the master failing only if the master completely dried out while sitting. If it had fluid the entire time, the seals should remain perfectly intact.
99% of the time when I take a working system apart and it doesn't work when I put it back together, it is because I did something wrong (shortcut, inferior parts, etc).
Please note the first step in the TSRM for the brake booster check is to fix all leaks. The spongy pedal (engine off or on) indicates a leak according to the TSRM. This must be fixed prior to conducting booster tests, otherwise test results are invalid and could be caused by the leak!!!?!
Apparently there is another possible downside to the pump-and-hold method of brake bleeding. According to another poster here, the pedal could travel too far and damage the booster. I find this hard to believe. I can't see Toyota letting this kind of dimensional trangression leave the factory. As long as the pedal travel has not been altered from factory specs, it should not be able to overtravel in any direction, so damage to the booster from this type of procedure seems less than likely.
I'll buy the booster, but you'll owe me double when we find out it is just fine.
Find the leak. It is a leak. Either master (internal) or line junction (bleeders included) are the most likely culprits. I can't stress this enough.
LEAK LEAK LEAK LEAK. Per TSRM. And per my own many experiences....
I will post pictures of damaged bleeders that have wiped out many a caliper and wheel cylinder in my vehicle history, if you want. Also, used crush washers on a brake system are not acceptable. The pressure is way too great and the sealing requirements too high to trust used crush washers, IMHO.
Just trying to find the most cost effective and least time consuming solution to your problem. Crush washers are cheap. New bleeder valves are cheap (but if the seat is damaged, it's new caliper time $$$).
Again, the fact that it holds pressure after repeated pumping says the master is working OK. The fact that the pedal goes to the floor when you start the engine says the booster is working. The fact that the pedal is soft (goes to the floor, or needs pumping to acheive pressure) says there is a leak in the hydraulic system. All per TSRM.
My mony is on the washers or a bad bleeder/caliper seat. Let me know what you're willing to bet...I could use the money.
Apparently there is another possible downside to the pump-and-hold method of brake bleeding. According to another poster here, the pedal could travel too far and damage the booster. I find this hard to believe. I can't see Toyota letting this kind of dimensional trangression leave the factory. As long as the pedal travel has not been altered from factory specs, it should not be able to overtravel in any direction, so damage to the booster from this type of procedure seems less than likely.
I'll buy the booster, but you'll owe me double when we find out it is just fine.
Find the leak. It is a leak. Either master (internal) or line junction (bleeders included) are the most likely culprits. I can't stress this enough.
LEAK LEAK LEAK LEAK. Per TSRM. And per my own many experiences....
I will post pictures of damaged bleeders that have wiped out many a caliper and wheel cylinder in my vehicle history, if you want. Also, used crush washers on a brake system are not acceptable. The pressure is way too great and the sealing requirements too high to trust used crush washers, IMHO.
Just trying to find the most cost effective and least time consuming solution to your problem. Crush washers are cheap. New bleeder valves are cheap (but if the seat is damaged, it's new caliper time $$$).
Again, the fact that it holds pressure after repeated pumping says the master is working OK. The fact that the pedal goes to the floor when you start the engine says the booster is working. The fact that the pedal is soft (goes to the floor, or needs pumping to acheive pressure) says there is a leak in the hydraulic system. All per TSRM.
My mony is on the washers or a bad bleeder/caliper seat. Let me know what you're willing to bet...I could use the money.
Damaged bleeders. One looks OK, but the seat is grooved and doesn't seal. You can feel the ridges with a fingernail dragged across the seat surface.
The other shows just what kind of debris can hide out in a bleeder, and what happens when corrosion takes over. Trying to bleed this clogged bleeder with the pump-and-hold will result in debris being introduced into the seat area almost without fail. This will prevent sealing of air. It might (and probably will) hold hydraulic pressure, as brake fluid is an order of magnitude thicker than air, but will allow air to enter the system upon release of the brake pedal. This will result in the exact symtoms you have described.
I would also recommend a new OEM master if yours did run dry and get damaged. Used brake parts on a car that goes 160mph are ????? I'll still bet on a caliper bleed screw or a bad washer though, as those are what were initially removed.
Call me when you get a chance...
Call me when you get a chance...
He said it passed a pedal height retention test when I asked him to perform one so that rules out a leak....
So, IJ, where is the pedal height retention test in the TSRM? What does a test at less than half operating pressure supposed to measure? It is not a leak spewing fluid OUT. It is a leak letting air IN!
Per TSRM troubleshooting, there is air in the system. Either by external leak (allowing air in, NOT fluid leaking out), or internal (seals bypassed in master or caliper). Please reread the troubleshooting section in the brake section of the TSRM. There are no other correct answers that I am aware of, unless you are willing to share your wisdom prior to dismissing the obvious TSRM solutions and confusing the situation worse.
Per every fluid dynamics engineering study available, the fact that he can pump up to pressure says air in the system. The fact that he has brakes after pumping says master is working. The fact that he has to squeeze the air out of the system or up to the hydraulic pressure by pumping says there is air in the system.
So that was easy. There is air in the system.
Now he has to find out where it is coming from or how to get rid of it completely.
Per TSRM troubleshooting, there is air in the system. Either by external leak (allowing air in, NOT fluid leaking out), or internal (seals bypassed in master or caliper). Please reread the troubleshooting section in the brake section of the TSRM. There are no other correct answers that I am aware of, unless you are willing to share your wisdom prior to dismissing the obvious TSRM solutions and confusing the situation worse.
Per every fluid dynamics engineering study available, the fact that he can pump up to pressure says air in the system. The fact that he has brakes after pumping says master is working. The fact that he has to squeeze the air out of the system or up to the hydraulic pressure by pumping says there is air in the system.
So that was easy. There is air in the system.
Now he has to find out where it is coming from or how to get rid of it completely.
I can only go on what he's telling us....
My feeling is yes there's a leak and a pedal height retention test should have shown that even at half system pressure (more like 1/3).
If it's a bleeder/crush washer as you suspect there would have to be an outward sign as there's no way possible it could let air in but not let fluid out i:e: wet area around it.
If he's bled the system to the point where he has a firm pedal and then it goes to the floor being a sealed system this fluid has to be going somewhere to allow enough air space for compression as fluid doesn't compress.
It can bypass the internal seals in the master but there would be evidence on the Booster of a leak.
As a side note I've ran many cars with no master installed just the booster and the pedal has never gone to the floor on startup (demand valve in play)
My feeling is yes there's a leak and a pedal height retention test should have shown that even at half system pressure (more like 1/3).
If it's a bleeder/crush washer as you suspect there would have to be an outward sign as there's no way possible it could let air in but not let fluid out i:e: wet area around it.
If he's bled the system to the point where he has a firm pedal and then it goes to the floor being a sealed system this fluid has to be going somewhere to allow enough air space for compression as fluid doesn't compress.
It can bypass the internal seals in the master but there would be evidence on the Booster of a leak.
As a side note I've ran many cars with no master installed just the booster and the pedal has never gone to the floor on startup (demand valve in play)
Regarding the "pedal retention" test I performed, it is on page BR-6 of the TSRM.
The only time the bleeders were completely removed by me (don't know about the P.O.) were to use Teflon tape on the threads when all this started happening. I didn't think to inspect the seat(s).
I did not use new crush washers when re-installing the front calipers. They were inspected and showed no signs of needing to be replaced.
I'm fairly certain that the master did not empty; but, since all of this has been rattling my gray matter...I can't say for sure.
So, there are some definite possibilities; but, here is where this thing is currently:
All bleeders have Teflon tape.
There are no wet spots on any junction of the system.
Hissing sound gone since the vacuum bleeder was used.
Vehicle Off: Pedal is stiff and normal.
Vehicle On: Pedal is spongy and is easily pressed to the floor on the first pump. Pedal Pressure slightly increases with consecutive pumps.
Vehicle Off: Brake fluid seems to relieve at similar pressure on all corners.
Vehicle On: Brake fluid relieves at significantly higher pressure on the front two calipers versus the rears.
On tomorrow's "To Do" list:
Buy new Master from Toyota (hopefully they won't want my first born...
)
Buy new bleeders from Toyota
Buy new crush washers from Toyota
Install new components and re-bleed
Does the fact that the front calipers are getting greater fluid pressure at the bleeders than at the rear indicate anything or is that typical because they handle most of the braking load?
Thanks everyone for the thought and input.
The only time the bleeders were completely removed by me (don't know about the P.O.) were to use Teflon tape on the threads when all this started happening. I didn't think to inspect the seat(s).
I did not use new crush washers when re-installing the front calipers. They were inspected and showed no signs of needing to be replaced.
I'm fairly certain that the master did not empty; but, since all of this has been rattling my gray matter...I can't say for sure.
So, there are some definite possibilities; but, here is where this thing is currently:
All bleeders have Teflon tape.
There are no wet spots on any junction of the system.
Hissing sound gone since the vacuum bleeder was used.
Vehicle Off: Pedal is stiff and normal.
Vehicle On: Pedal is spongy and is easily pressed to the floor on the first pump. Pedal Pressure slightly increases with consecutive pumps.
Vehicle Off: Brake fluid seems to relieve at similar pressure on all corners.
Vehicle On: Brake fluid relieves at significantly higher pressure on the front two calipers versus the rears.
On tomorrow's "To Do" list:
Buy new Master from Toyota (hopefully they won't want my first born...
)Buy new bleeders from Toyota
Buy new crush washers from Toyota
Install new components and re-bleed
Does the fact that the front calipers are getting greater fluid pressure at the bleeders than at the rear indicate anything or is that typical because they handle most of the braking load?
Thanks everyone for the thought and input.
Crush washers from Toyota might not be a good ideal. Any local auto store would have a set of crush washers that you can buy in a kit and keep. Makes sense since they are used a lot. Just a suggestion but it they are cheaper at the dealer, then that is good too.
I would suggest just buying the master first, trying it and then go from there. When you go to your Toyota dealer, have them do the invoice for the master cylinder and a quote invoice for the other parts. If you try the master and it solves the issues, then good, if not, you can call and give them the quote number and they will know what to order since they have all the part numbers associated with that quote invoice. Saves two trips and potentially money if the master is the only problem.
Like Ian said, it would leak air and then fluid as well if any of the bleeding nipples...hahah nipples, I like boobies....back on topic....actually were leaking. Take a look at the rear T-fitting for the brake lines and check to see there are no leaks. I don't believe there is a leak since it would feel spongy with the car on and off.
Just a reference, we had a Chevy Tahoe at the shop. We ordered a remaned master cylinder for it, trying to save our customer money, installed it and the brakes were a little better but not how they were supposed to feel. We bleed the master and then the whole braking system which did not help. We ordered a new master cylinder and after installation and bleeding, it worked perfectly.
I would suggest just buying the master first, trying it and then go from there. When you go to your Toyota dealer, have them do the invoice for the master cylinder and a quote invoice for the other parts. If you try the master and it solves the issues, then good, if not, you can call and give them the quote number and they will know what to order since they have all the part numbers associated with that quote invoice. Saves two trips and potentially money if the master is the only problem.
Like Ian said, it would leak air and then fluid as well if any of the bleeding nipples...hahah nipples, I like boobies....back on topic....actually were leaking. Take a look at the rear T-fitting for the brake lines and check to see there are no leaks. I don't believe there is a leak since it would feel spongy with the car on and off.
Just a reference, we had a Chevy Tahoe at the shop. We ordered a remaned master cylinder for it, trying to save our customer money, installed it and the brakes were a little better but not how they were supposed to feel. We bleed the master and then the whole braking system which did not help. We ordered a new master cylinder and after installation and bleeding, it worked perfectly.
Again, pedal height retention test is for booster operation. All these test require that all air be removed from the hydraulic system PRIOR to conductiing tests, as mentioned on the "Hint" sections on BR-6 of the TSRM. The booster is not an issue until the hydraulic system is fixed and the tests can be performed correctly.
Agreed, reman'd parts are not always 100%. I went through two aftermarket power steering pumps before I had to use a new OEM Toyota pump to solve the problem. Same with other vehicles alternators and master cylinders.
And a crush washer kit from an auto parts store is a great way to go, agreed! Get twenty for the price of four.
Seeing as you now have decent pressure at the fronts and, as IJ said, there should be some wetness noticeable around the washers if there was a leak, especially if you pump up the brakes with the engine on and squish the living sh*t out of them, I would also agree and find it unlikely that the washers are giving up either.
It's been my expereince that new bleeders are only 50% effective at solving a caliper/bleed screw leak. If the caliper seat is damaged, new bleeders might not help.
The fact that the front have good pressure and the rears don't suggests either an internal master seal bypass issue or a leak (or air still trapped) somewhere in the rear. If the caliper seals are leaking, the fluid wont be immediately noticable as the dust seals should retain it for a while, and it is hard to see in there after the brakes are assembled. I have lost more than a few calipers because of internal pitting in the bore damaging the seals as they are pushed back during pad retraction for reassembly. Very common on twenty+year old brake calipers that have only operated in a limited range of travel for such a long time.
When we spoke on the phone, you mentioned you had a caliper that needed a little extra attention during the process, but I can't remeber which one. Was it one of the rears? If corrosion has attacked other parts of the caliper(s), then I would start my investigation there.
I always suspect calipers before masters as calipers see more heat, water, grime, etc. They live in a sh*tty environment. The master is babied by comparison. It sees fresh fluid first; the calipers rarely ever get this until a full system flush is completed. It sees very little heat, vibration, or any other damaging conditions relative to the calipers.
It's been my experience that masters only fail when: the system is neglected and the fluid turns to crap; The system is allowed to run dry and the seals swell from moisture absorption, then tear at first movement; excessive pedal travel moves the piston into a corroded (previously unused) portion of the piston bore, thereby damaging the seals (another reason not to use the pump-and-hold method of bleeding). There are other instances and ways to kill a master, but they are extremely rare.
My gut tells me it's probably a single caliper in the rear, or the master. But, again, if you have brakes after pumping, and the pedal remains firm (engine on, full operating pressure), then that would suggest the master is working, but it is having to compress the trapped air up to operating pressures before the brakes operate properly.
Air brakes are used on trucks and other vehicles. Air can be used, but Kenny, you are now the compressor, and have to pump the system up each time you want it to work.
As far as I am aware, there should be a brake proportioning valve that does restrict pressure to the rear calipers. This is also a fairly standard automotive practice, as far as I am aware. But the pressure should still be 1000+psi with vacuum assist, even at the rears. The fronts should be around 1500-1700psi w/vacuum.
Get a price on calipers while you are at Toyota.
Ahhh, screw it, Kenny....It's time for the Big Brake Kit! Guaranteed to make it all better!!!!!! Call Andy and FedEx!
Agreed, reman'd parts are not always 100%. I went through two aftermarket power steering pumps before I had to use a new OEM Toyota pump to solve the problem. Same with other vehicles alternators and master cylinders.
And a crush washer kit from an auto parts store is a great way to go, agreed! Get twenty for the price of four.
Seeing as you now have decent pressure at the fronts and, as IJ said, there should be some wetness noticeable around the washers if there was a leak, especially if you pump up the brakes with the engine on and squish the living sh*t out of them, I would also agree and find it unlikely that the washers are giving up either.
It's been my expereince that new bleeders are only 50% effective at solving a caliper/bleed screw leak. If the caliper seat is damaged, new bleeders might not help.
The fact that the front have good pressure and the rears don't suggests either an internal master seal bypass issue or a leak (or air still trapped) somewhere in the rear. If the caliper seals are leaking, the fluid wont be immediately noticable as the dust seals should retain it for a while, and it is hard to see in there after the brakes are assembled. I have lost more than a few calipers because of internal pitting in the bore damaging the seals as they are pushed back during pad retraction for reassembly. Very common on twenty+year old brake calipers that have only operated in a limited range of travel for such a long time.
When we spoke on the phone, you mentioned you had a caliper that needed a little extra attention during the process, but I can't remeber which one. Was it one of the rears? If corrosion has attacked other parts of the caliper(s), then I would start my investigation there.
I always suspect calipers before masters as calipers see more heat, water, grime, etc. They live in a sh*tty environment. The master is babied by comparison. It sees fresh fluid first; the calipers rarely ever get this until a full system flush is completed. It sees very little heat, vibration, or any other damaging conditions relative to the calipers.
It's been my experience that masters only fail when: the system is neglected and the fluid turns to crap; The system is allowed to run dry and the seals swell from moisture absorption, then tear at first movement; excessive pedal travel moves the piston into a corroded (previously unused) portion of the piston bore, thereby damaging the seals (another reason not to use the pump-and-hold method of bleeding). There are other instances and ways to kill a master, but they are extremely rare.
My gut tells me it's probably a single caliper in the rear, or the master. But, again, if you have brakes after pumping, and the pedal remains firm (engine on, full operating pressure), then that would suggest the master is working, but it is having to compress the trapped air up to operating pressures before the brakes operate properly.
Air brakes are used on trucks and other vehicles. Air can be used, but Kenny, you are now the compressor, and have to pump the system up each time you want it to work.
As far as I am aware, there should be a brake proportioning valve that does restrict pressure to the rear calipers. This is also a fairly standard automotive practice, as far as I am aware. But the pressure should still be 1000+psi with vacuum assist, even at the rears. The fronts should be around 1500-1700psi w/vacuum.
Get a price on calipers while you are at Toyota.
Ahhh, screw it, Kenny....It's time for the Big Brake Kit! Guaranteed to make it all better!!!!!! Call Andy and FedEx!
PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!!
Ok. As much as I hate to admit this, the problem was all my fault. There are three reasons I am about to admit that I'm not perfect.
1. I don't like hanging threads. Folks post problems, get them solved, and don't post the fix.
2. Post the fix so the next person won't have to go through the trouble.
3. To give credit to tsupranami for finding the problem.
A big thanks to everyone for their help/input.
Have I stalled long enough?
Are you in suspense?
Are you still reading?
Do I really have to admit this?
Ok....here it is....
I inadvertently reversed the caliper locations. :3d_frown:
Ok. As much as I hate to admit this, the problem was all my fault. There are three reasons I am about to admit that I'm not perfect.
1. I don't like hanging threads. Folks post problems, get them solved, and don't post the fix.
2. Post the fix so the next person won't have to go through the trouble.
3. To give credit to tsupranami for finding the problem.
A big thanks to everyone for their help/input.
Have I stalled long enough?
Are you in suspense?
Are you still reading?
Do I really have to admit this?
Ok....here it is....
I inadvertently reversed the caliper locations. :3d_frown:
You mean you put the left on the right and the right on the left?
Not exactly sure what you meant.
Not exactly sure what you meant.
Yeeehaa! Another Supra back on the road!:burnout:
Yep, left on right, and vice a versa, upside down bleeders....:beer:
What surprises me is how easy is it to put them on wrong. There is no unique bolt pattern or bracket orientation to prevent incorrect installation. Granted, the rears do have big L and R cast into them...:kickinthenuts:
The hissing noise was caused simply from the booster diagphram moving past it's normal position due to the lack of hydraulic pressure in the brake lines. The excess diagphram travel created a pressure differential and subsequent air pressure equalization (hissing) that cars with properly operating brake systems wouldn't ever expereince to the same degree.
So a hissing brake booster is the sign that your calipers are on upside down....:aigo:
IBoughtASupra;1710074 said:
Yep, left on right, and vice a versa, upside down bleeders....:beer:
What surprises me is how easy is it to put them on wrong. There is no unique bolt pattern or bracket orientation to prevent incorrect installation. Granted, the rears do have big L and R cast into them...:kickinthenuts:
The hissing noise was caused simply from the booster diagphram moving past it's normal position due to the lack of hydraulic pressure in the brake lines. The excess diagphram travel created a pressure differential and subsequent air pressure equalization (hissing) that cars with properly operating brake systems wouldn't ever expereince to the same degree.
So a hissing brake booster is the sign that your calipers are on upside down....:aigo:
Yup...yup... Having the left and right swapped put the bleeders in a different position. This was truly an amazing course of events; but, yes! One more supra back on the road!
There's my goof up for the week. Who's next!?
There's my goof up for the week. Who's next!?
You are an idiot and a disgrace to the community...get off my internets...CajunKenny;1710055 said:
JK glad it was a simple fix and you guys got it figured out! Bet that wont ever happen to you again, and probably not to me either now that I have read your thread (though no guarantees
).