a little while back, i bought a lipp fuel rail through hpf with single 8an feed. i installed an a1000 pump and ran 8an feed and 6an return lines down the car. first off, it was a pain in the ass to put the injectors into the rail even though i lubed them with grease. i ended up returning that rail and the 2nd one wasn't much better. i was even trying to use stock injectors- it made no difference. so i said screw it and dremeled the ports which is when i discovered pits in some of the ports (poor quality aluminum). i tried it anyway, and after fixing a couple of leaks (those pits were shredding the o-rings), it was working. but i don't trust it. any suggestions? i would like to have one of the power house racing rails but i guess they don't make them anymore. i really don't wanna re-fanagle the feed line either. anyone had experience boring stock rail?
fuel rail help
- Thread starter supra_ed
- Start date
drjonez drilled out his stock rail for dual feed, center return. he might have pics up on www.4cefed.com . i don't think the inside diameter of his rail was increased, but i know for a fact that he had dual feed on the sides, and center return.
-shaeff
-shaeff
Duane made over 800 rwhp with the stock rail... He has an 8an feed, 6an return... I have the same set up on my rail... Im running an A1000 too...
People listen: your STOCK fuel rail is huge! It will handle MORE fuel than 95% of you will ever need... Just upgrade your lines and pump...
People listen: your STOCK fuel rail is huge! It will handle MORE fuel than 95% of you will ever need... Just upgrade your lines and pump...
supra_ed said:
Yes but that power is old news. See sig for new
Nope, OEM aka STOCK rail with -8 feed and -6 return
Duane
88-7MGTE said:
Yes...it can be powder coated. I've chrome ceramic coated several...a more durable option IMO.
No shit, Toyota got something right on this motor, lol, why not take advantage of it... I LOL when I see people spending hundreds of dollars on "big" fuel rails for our motors... Maybe if you're running 1500cc injectors and 1200hp, MAYBE... :icon_biggupgradedsupra said:Yes as Jake stated....I run an OEM rail
Duane
Reign_Maker said:
Yes they did do a few things right
I too laugh when I see people "upgrading" them, when all they need to do is tap a bigger feed line.Duane
ummm
why is this like dejavu to me????
Ok here it is again.
what is the pressure the fuel pump is seeing vs the pressure at the rail? The fuel pump will be seeing higher pressure on a stock rail at those volume pressure. A bigger ID for a fuel rail has nothing to do with power or HP capability. It has to do with actually maximizing your fuel pump at the particular pressure level.
Example (making assumptions to give you an idea, no where near real but close enough)
assumptions:
Fuel pump in question used is weldon 2025
no fuel pump voltage step down.
Assume a straight accross pressure loss as pressure goes up (not applicable to real world but close enough and understating the percentage) of 10% accross the board.
Fuel line is of adequate ID not to cause pressure loss.
use of gasoline not oxygenated
use of fuel pressure measurements directly after the fuel pump, 1 inch before to fuel rail and 1 inch after the fuel feeding the afpr (usual config).
First the typical configuration.
J6P runs a fuel pump rated at 160 gph (605 lph) @ 43.5 psi guage (called psig) with vacuum hose disconnected. This pressure is measured at the AFPR after the fuel comes out of the rail. If we were to a take a measurement at the fuel pump at this pressure and volume. You are going to see roughly a 10% increase in what the pump sees (47.8 psig). So the fuel pump is really not flowing 605 lph, taking the pressure loss into the picture the fuel pump is now flowing 586 lph, a loss of 14 lph. Wait it gets better!! Boost has not been brought into this picture as of yet and this is where pressure losses afeect motors
So j6p is happy as a clam, has no issues (that he knows off) so he decides to do a run at 300 kpa (30 psi gauge pressure for all you guage readers ) pass. So quick math, that is 43.5 + 30 psig = 73.5 psig that the fuel pump SHOULD be seeing. Ahh forgot the pressure losses again? 73.5(psig)+10% (7.35psig) = 80.85 psi seen for pressure loss, this makes the fuel pump in question flow 520 lph (140 gph) and is teetering the pump about 4 psig short of maximum pressure capable. Just for comparison, the walbro GSS317 would be flowing 170 lph (40 gph) @ 80 psi. Barely enough to sustain 600 hp.
Can it be done. Sure it can. Is it efficent. Not as efficent as the properly sized fuel rail
why is this like dejavu to me????
Ok here it is again.
what is the pressure the fuel pump is seeing vs the pressure at the rail? The fuel pump will be seeing higher pressure on a stock rail at those volume pressure. A bigger ID for a fuel rail has nothing to do with power or HP capability. It has to do with actually maximizing your fuel pump at the particular pressure level.
Example (making assumptions to give you an idea, no where near real but close enough)
assumptions:
Fuel pump in question used is weldon 2025
no fuel pump voltage step down.
Assume a straight accross pressure loss as pressure goes up (not applicable to real world but close enough and understating the percentage) of 10% accross the board.
Fuel line is of adequate ID not to cause pressure loss.
use of gasoline not oxygenated
use of fuel pressure measurements directly after the fuel pump, 1 inch before to fuel rail and 1 inch after the fuel feeding the afpr (usual config).
First the typical configuration.
J6P runs a fuel pump rated at 160 gph (605 lph) @ 43.5 psi guage (called psig) with vacuum hose disconnected. This pressure is measured at the AFPR after the fuel comes out of the rail. If we were to a take a measurement at the fuel pump at this pressure and volume. You are going to see roughly a 10% increase in what the pump sees (47.8 psig). So the fuel pump is really not flowing 605 lph, taking the pressure loss into the picture the fuel pump is now flowing 586 lph, a loss of 14 lph. Wait it gets better!! Boost has not been brought into this picture as of yet and this is where pressure losses afeect motors
So j6p is happy as a clam, has no issues (that he knows off) so he decides to do a run at 300 kpa (30 psi gauge pressure for all you guage readers
) pass. So quick math, that is 43.5 + 30 psig = 73.5 psig that the fuel pump SHOULD be seeing. Ahh forgot the pressure losses again? 73.5(psig)+10% (7.35psig) = 80.85 psi seen for pressure loss, this makes the fuel pump in question flow 520 lph (140 gph) and is teetering the pump about 4 psig short of maximum pressure capable. Just for comparison, the walbro GSS317 would be flowing 170 lph (40 gph) @ 80 psi. Barely enough to sustain 600 hp.Can it be done. Sure it can. Is it efficent. Not as efficent as the properly sized fuel rail
That looks good on paper, however, in real world applications, its different... First of all, when it comes to fuel, over kill is best... Meaning pumps and injectors... If I wanted to run 600hp, I wouldnt think of using a pump rated for 600hp... Something more along the lines of 800hp... If I wanted 600hp, I wouldnt run 620cc injectors, maybe 750cc... On my old set up, I couldnt boost past 23.5psi due to the fact that my pump, or pumps really, couldnt flow for it... ID of the fuel rail is roughly -8an, forget exactly, but read somewhere the IDs are similar... So what then if you bore the rail out, so now what, the last 14" of the feed is bigger? You have to realize when building a set up like this that you really should ditch the stock fuel lines for larger, braided lines... Filling the rail is the job of the pump, its also its job to keep it full... Therefore maintain a pump that can do the job... One walbro255 is good for 500, but would you ask it to fuel a 700hp motor? no...
I think Duane's set up, and mine and several others who are running similar set ups are designed for and capable of that much power, obvious with Duane, with out straining the pump, simply because with a proper pump, it will handle it with out problems, or inefficiency...
Make sense?
I see what your saying, and I can understand it if you are still on stock fuel lines and stock fpr... But if you upgrade it all, and go with a pump designed for it then I dont see it being a problem... Especially since it's been proven, in real world aps, not just in theory on paper...
I think Duane's set up, and mine and several others who are running similar set ups are designed for and capable of that much power, obvious with Duane, with out straining the pump, simply because with a proper pump, it will handle it with out problems, or inefficiency...
Make sense?
I see what your saying, and I can understand it if you are still on stock fuel lines and stock fpr... But if you upgrade it all, and go with a pump designed for it then I dont see it being a problem... Especially since it's been proven, in real world aps, not just in theory on paper...
Reign_Maker said:
Woah woah woah!
Paper??
Highly mistaken.
Notice the flat assumption i made of 10%. It is actually worse. And on top of that as pressure goes up the pressure loss increases. but instead of complicating where I was going with my post I kept it simple. I got the numbers by reading from the fuel rail AND 1 inch of the fuel pump at the SAME time.
believe me, the numbers I used are on the understatement side.Did you read what fuel pump I was using the example of? The weldon 2025??? 160 gph (605 lph) @ 45 psi or equivalent to 2.4 walbros @ 45 psi. Which by the way flows more than the aeromotive a1000 and is comparable to the aeromotive elemiantor. I myself run the weldon 2345. I am the only MKIII with this pump. The only people I know running this monster is titan in thier drag supra and a whole slew of NMRA folks. Folks in the 10.5 class stick with the 2035 regardless of engine (302 Ford, 350 Chevy, 454 olds etc). At the same time remember, I am pushing copious amount of E85 through this fuel pump.
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I read walbro, doh... I dunno, Im dealing with a problem child right now on here, so my head is a little on the angry side...
To be continued mr figgie...
BTW: I know what pump Im gettin next, cant let you be the ONLY one...
To be continued mr figgie...
BTW: I know what pump Im gettin next, cant let you be the ONLY one...
Reign_Maker said:BTW: I know what pump Im gettin next, cant let you be the ONLY one...
just keep in mind.
the input line is -12
the output is -10
Need the Weldon Dial-A-Flow for street duties and also requires the bigger fpr from aeromotive or the weldon regulator.