Fresh build, oil seepage from Rear Main

[gottadiesel]

So here is the deal, I did a test that many may no do and I found a result outside of what I was testing that has me concerned. Being that my oil pan leaked when I pulled the motor, I wanted to insure that it was not going to leak again, so after sealing and installing, I let it sit for 48 hours and then but some 10 qts of oil in it, so that is was a couple of inches above the oil pan seal... so I let it sit that way for a couple of weeks while I was doing work to the interior, so now when checking, I found a slight puddle of oil on the lip of the main rear seal, where the outside of the seal meets up against the seal retainer. I assume that in this condition that the seal should not have leaked or does it need to spin and kind of seat in? As motor is on the stand and has not been started since build. Any suggestions would be appreciated, as I sure don't want to have to pull the motor again anytime too soon...

FYI - I had a reputable and well sought after machine shop run by a father and son do a long block rebuild, the father being more of a small/big block V8 guy, but his son being more of the performance rice and krout burner guy... he was familiar with the 7m motor and so far as I can tell at this time did a very precise and accurate build... but if the seal needs to be replaced, I will sure call them up and ask them to do it...

Thanks!

 

[WhtMa71]

More than likely it will not leak when you drive it. The only oil that area is going to see when the engine is running is going to be oil that is slung up off the crank or running down back to the pan.

I would check to see if there is a groove worn into the crank, which would have been something the machine shop should repair. Also, did you put AP grease on the seal before installing it?

 

[mkIIIman089]

It will be fine. The seal works when the crank is spinning (see the vanes inside?) and it will never see oil that high while the crank is stationary.

The seals I've gotten from Toyota are all pre-lubed from the factory.

 

[IJ.]

I machine the aluminium seal mount so the seal moves 1mm closer to the front of the engine and away from any wear/groove.

 

[gottadiesel]

Thanks to all for the replies!

I was thinking just that (oil level is never that high and it does not see oil unless it is moving) and I have never done this before to an engine, (was just not 110% satisfied with the seal job on the pan, so wanted to test it) I have replaced several main seals in other motors, but just put it all back together and have never had one leak...

Machine shop did a long block rebuild, so they put it in, I saw crank before it went in, they send them out to a crank specialist and it looked good when it came back... I also know that the seal was bought from Toyota not part of the kit ...

Well I will not worry much then and will continue on the track to "engine start" hopefully by May 22nd haven't given up on the local Centralia M&G in Washington...

Thanks again!

 

[gottadiesel]

Well an update some time later - it is on the road and running and the seal has leaked since initial start-up :-(

So I am pulling the tranny and pulling seal and retainer ( I can pull retainer without pulling pan right?)

A Toyota seal was used, I am thinking I will follow IJ's lead on this one and have the retainer re-surfaced to seat on a fresh location on the crank shaft.

Any further thoughts or confirmation of this plan would be appreciated...

Thanks

 

[metaphysico]

Only have the inside of the hole machined, the part that stops the seal from going in any further. IIRC the bolts for the oil pan go into that cover and if you machine the back( as you post makes out), then those bolts will not line up correctly and pull the rear cover away from the motor and possibly cause a leak.

 

[gottadiesel]

Only have the inside of the hole machined, the part that stops the seal from going in any further. IIRC the bolts for the oil pan go into that cover and if you machine the back( as you post makes out), then those bolts will not line up correctly and pull the rear cover away from the motor and possibly cause a leak.

Yeah so true, I am pulling the transmission out tonight and I will take a closer look, but yeah I am sure that 2 or 4 bolts go into the bottom of retainer, so maybe could widen holes through pan?

IJ - how do you compensate moving the retainer 1mm in relation to the pan bolting to it?

Thanks

 

[Poodles]

Removing the retainer will disturb the oil pan seal IIRC.

 

[hvyman]

You manchine the surface where the seals rests on the inside not the where the retainer meets the block.

Ya you will need to reseal the oil where the retainer and you might even have to loosen some oil pan bolts too. Might be easier to just pull the whole motor and trans as one, but its up to you.

 

[Poodles]

Could just try replacing the seal as it could have been nicked on install as well...

 

[3p141592654]

I'm with IJ. I had a differential leak that would not go away (I replaced the seal 3 times) until I moved the seal location relative to the halfshaft. The groove was barely detectable but it was enough to cause a leak.

 

[IJ.]

Yeah so true, I am pulling the transmission out tonight and I will take a closer look, but yeah I am sure that 2 or 4 bolts go into the bottom of retainer, so maybe could widen holes through pan?

IJ - how do you compensate moving the retainer 1mm in relation to the pan bolting to it?

Thanks

There's more than enough clearence in the Pan holes to allow for 1mm to be removed from the Mount's face, can't see how short of an independent 4 jaw chuck and a LOT of time spent setting up or a custom Jig in an accurate CNC and again a LOT of set up time and dial indicating the bore how you would machine the ID.....

I don't make "suggestions" without actually having done the work and had it proven to work guys.

Another "easier" way to achieve the same result is to carefully linish 1mm from the Seals Steel body making sure NOT to overheat it or touch the seal surface with the Belt.

 

[CyFi6]

Cant you just buy a repair sleeve and press it onto the crankshaft?
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=257729

 

[gottadiesel]

There's more than enough clearence in the Pan holes to allow for 1mm to be removed from the Mount's face, can't see how short of an independent 4 jaw chuck and a LOT of time spent setting up or a custom Jig in an accurate CNC and again a LOT of set up time and dial indicating the bore how you would machine the ID.....

I don't make "suggestions" without actually having done the work and had it proven to work guys.

Another "easier" way to achieve the same result is to carefully linish 1mm from the Seals Steel body making sure NOT to overheat it or touch the seal surface with the Belt.

Thanks for confirmation IJ, I will plan to go that route, unless I can perhaps see any evidence on the seal of nicking, in process of removing transmission right now, so will look to make certain that is where it is leaking once flywheel is off, I assume I will see a little bead of oil sitting on that lip under the seal if it is leaking... but I am thinking it is possible to be coming from retainer seal and only leak into the bell housing??? Probably not likely but possible perhaps...

I do understand that I am running a risk of the oil pan leaking after pulling retainer. I used the seal packing from Toyota, so I am thinking if I carefully remove all of it from the surface that is accessible and replace with new seal packing that with a little luck it will not leak at the oil pan... but if it does I guess I will either pull the motor again or drop the sub-frame... but I just got the car running great, has 1200 miles on it now and I really don't want to fuss with all that goes with pulling the motor if I can help it.

But if I take your 2nd suggestion and taking some off of the seal itself, understanding this would be a delicate process and would be done in conjunction with the machine shop I used, but is it recommended to pull the seal using a slide hammer or similar to pull that seal or is that asking for trouble? That would keep me from having to break the seal on the retainer and would be worth trying as it does not take that long to pull and re-install the transmission.

Thanks again for the information!

---------- Post added at 07:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:51 PM ----------

Cant you just buy a repair sleeve and press it onto the crankshaft?
http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=257729

IIRC as a general rule it is not recommended to sleeve the 7m crank? I know I know, I do not remember where when or from whom I read but I figure it is better if sealed without a sleeve... maybe worst case scenario? If anyone else has better information it would be great to know if that is a valid option. Thanks

 

[IJ.]

Either a screw driver or a seal puller will pop it right out, it's a large diameter so comes out easily.

Personally this would be how I'd do it so it doesn't disturb the Pan sealing.

Machining the retainer is good if you're assembling the engine.

 

[gottadiesel]

Either a screw driver or a seal puller will pop it right out, it's a large diameter so comes out easily.

Personally this would be how I'd do it so it doesn't disturb the Pan sealing.

Machining the retainer is good if you're assembling the engine.

If you would personally do it - well good enough for me

I'll give it a go, should be able to put it back in tomorrow night and will know if it is leaking by Wednesday... so I will update with hopes of success...

Thank You!

 

[IJ.]

Very welcome hope it goes well for you!

Don't forget some grease on the Rubber Lip and some Permatex #4 on the Outer edge of the seal, this will make it slide in with just finger pressure and once the permatex sets it won't come out.

 

[gottadiesel]

Very welcome hope it goes well for you!

Don't forget some grease on the Rubber Lip and some Permatex #4 on the Outer edge of the seal, this will make it slide in with just finger pressure and once the permatex sets it won't come out.

Yep good with the grease on lip, but never tried the permatex with that application, great idea though and one that I for sure will put to use... Will update later this week. Thanks again!

---------- Post added at 11:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 PM ----------

some Permatex #4 on the Outer edge of the seal, this will make it slide in with just finger pressure and once the permatex sets it won't come out.

Oh and just to verify we are talking the same product - I assume you referring to the following:

Permatex® PermaPoxy™ 4 Minute Multi-Metal Epoxy

Just wanted to make sure before I do something idiotic :slap: that deserves a probie slap...

 

[IJ.]

LOL :slap:

NO!

I mean

They've changed the range again... used to be #4