Extracting power without extracting the rods from the block

Doward

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
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Alachua, FL
Come on, let's discuss it all here - reducing internal friction, optimizing flow through the head, increasing quench area, timing vs flame travel speed.

How to extract more power from an engine, without extracting the rods from the block!
 

Rennat

5psi...? haha
Dec 6, 2005
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how can you reduce the "internal friction" without removing the rods? haha... i mean, you could coat the cams, shims, valves and guides... but other than that what else is there to reduce... theres always port and polish though.

Isnt "mirror polishing" the combustion chamber also suppose to help with the elimination of "hot spots" during the combustion?
 

Keros

Canadian Bacon
Mar 16, 2007
825
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Calgary
How can we reduce internal friction without dealing with the lifespan of the motor? Bearings that are within spec have the optimal distance to keep just the right amount of oil between the bearing surfaces to have low friction...

I saw an advertisement [somewhere] for main bearings that were not smooth... they were ridged, appearing to have a bearing surface covered in pyramids. The theory was that the crank would sit on the tips of the pyramids not on the flat surface of the bearing. Don't recal where I saw them though...
 

IHI-RHC7

"The Boss"
Apr 1, 2005
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Oregon
knife edge, windage tray, dry sump, all reduce internal friction.
I'm with Grim on the "our valvetrain=suck" category...
 

need new tires

rubber slinger
Nov 10, 2005
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Dayton,Ohio
Rennat;1009036 said:
Isnt "mirror polishing" the combustion chamber also suppose to help with the elimination of "hot spots" during the combustion?


"mirror polishing" the combustion chamber... can i get some more opions on this. i neve have done it due to something i was told. but i would love some other opions.

i will hold what i was told till i get a few opions
 

WhtMa71

D0 W3RK
Apr 24, 2007
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Macon, GA
I dont think mirror polishing the combustion chamber is a great idea. At least from what ive read. Now mirror polishing the exhaust ports works great most of the time.
Read this http://www.theoldone.com/articles/engine_tips/enginebuildingtippistons1.html

-Moly coating on the pistions skirts,
-Correct piston prep and ceramic coating on the crowns and combustion chamber as well as the valve faces.(once again check out my link)
-Ive heard of a few people who have gotten their bearings moly coated.
-Cams moly'd,shims,buckets moly'd?(as long as clearances are alright)
-Mild port job and at least a 3-angle valve job ususally do the trick
-Ceramic coat inside/outside of exhaust manifold and turbo.(keep the heat inside)
-Crank and rods cryo'd.
I'll think of more later.
 

Doward

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
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Alachua, FL
A mirror polish in the combustion chamber will help reflect heat back into the incoming air charge, so you prevent hot spots.

You want to keep a little roughness in the tract between the valve and the fuel injector, to keep the fuel in suspension.

Polish the exhaust side all you want - increase laminar flow!

As for our valvetrains, yes - they do suck. I've had a wild idea for some time now, to replace all the 'bearing surfaces' for the camshafts, with hemispherical needle bearings. I just haven't found any that would be the right size :( That would be a huge decrease in upper-end friction.

How about intake harmonics at varying density levels of incoming air/fuel charge?
 

Doward

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
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Alachua, FL
Aww, I'm disappointed. :(

Do you realize that the air/fuel mixture burns at different rates, depending on the density of the incoming charge?

Do you also realize that, as the crankshaft comes up to TDC, you actually have to ignite the air/fuel mixture before the piston arrives at TDC?

See, that air/fuel mixture will burn at a certain, steady rate. As you increase the density of the air/fuel mixture, the burn takes longer to complete, and the slower the flame front. This is why you get so much torque - the air/fuel mixture burns longer ;) Think for a moment on that.

A normal combustion cycle compresses the air/fuel mixture to a certain degree, the spark comes and *pop* you have combustion. As that combustion is taking place, the force pushes against the piston, forcing the piston down the cylinder.

Well, as the piston goes down, the amount of room that explosion has gets larger, so the amount of pressure on the piston goes down dramatically. When you increase the density of the air/fuel mixture, there is more of it, so it takes longer to burn - when normal combustion has run out of fuel to put pressure on the piston, the forced induction combustion still has fuel burning, gases expanding, and pressure on the piston ;)

All that said, let's talk about timing for a bit. Everyone hears that 'adding extra timing increases power!'

Is this true? Yes and no. Depends on how optimized your timing is, from the factory ;)

IIRC, optimum mechanical force from the piston to the crankshaft occurs 20 degrees AFTER TDC (which means you want the highest cylinder pressure at this point)

That said, you want to ignite the mixture at the point that gives you the highest pressure around 20 degrees ATDC. Keep in mind, when we say we are 'advancing' timing, we are actually firing the plugs further before TDC!

So does advancing the ignition help power? If before you advanced the timing, you were achieving the highest pressure after 20º ATDC, then yes - you should see some small torque gaines.

If, on the other hand, you were already firing @ 20º ATDC, advancing would give you almost nothing in return! You can actually end up with maximum pressure anywhere from 1-19º timing, and be seeing cylinder pressures that are no higher than @ 20º ATDC - meaning you are actually NOT getting any more torque to the crankshaft, and only increasing the wear on the engine (namely, the crank bearings)

Now, taking all of that in consideration, what timing differences would we see between say.... 4000rpm and 7000rpm?

Well, the piston is certainly moving faster @ 7000rpm, right? If we have the same incoming air/fuel pressurization (be it NA or Forced), the fuel is going to burn at the same rate. But hey - the piston is going to hit TDC quicker spinning 7000rpm, than spinning 4000rpm, right? This actually means you want to advance your timing a bit in the upper rpm reaches. You don't want to go overboard with this. You actually don't want to go overboard with timing at all - remember, you want to hit that 20º ATDC mark - no need to add more timing than that!

It's a concept I've heard called (and I call) MTBT - Minimum Timing for Best Torque. If you stick with MTBT, you'll have a perfectly safe, very powerful timing curve.

Hopefully, you will see the difference in density from off boost to say, 20psi of boost requires a very different timing curve.
 

Adjuster

Supramania Contributor
I know adding the 6.5mm of extra stroke to the 7M added nearly 100lbs of tourqe to the engine at the same rpm, same turbo, same fuel...

There were some other changes however, the engine was fresh, it also has coatings galore and now displaces 3.24L v/s the 2.9 something that the stocker does... and my static CR was supposed to be 9:1 based on the piston design, but might be either higher, or lower, depending on how my port work turned out, and how much was ultimately machined off my head and block deck... for the 3mm MHG that I've used in 4 engines now..

It sure had more low end power and tourqe. (And If I ever put everything back into the car again, I'll find out if the new setup has the same, or more I hope.) The long tube exhaust manifold should scavange better than the stock log type.

Coatings.
My head cam journals are molydisulfied coated. (Reduces friction.)
Same coating on the main and rod bearings, piston skirts and pretty much any bearing surface.
Combustion chamber, exhaust ports and valve faces along with the piston crowns are coated with a thermal barrier. (And they are ported, smoothed etc.)
Thermal dispersant coats the block and head, inside and out. Same with the transmission cases and some parts, they are coated too for friction, and/or thermal rejection qualities.

Exhaust coatings, and wraps. They work really well. (Both lowers the underhood temps, and also any heat you keep in the exhaust flow, is heat you can use to run the turbo as quickly as possible....)
 

gaboonviper85

Supramania Contributor
Jan 13, 2008
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Northeast Philly
i think mirror coating the cylinders would be super for the first 10 seconds of life....but piston rings would make quick work of ruining it! mirror polishing exhaust would only last a few weeks until carbon made its self at home then its just pointless.....thats my opinion....
 

Rennat

5psi...? haha
Dec 6, 2005
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Tracy, CA
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and if you run water/meth on your engine... it'll look fresh with 10k or 100k on it...
my friend has 150k on his, and when you pull a spark plug, you can see the dimples in the piston still...

that was some GREAT timing info though....

Now, what about boring the motor over? i've been trying to figure out how many cc's i have now... but i can seem to do the math right. If you punch it .40 over... whats the end result? i know theres not some amazing amount of power to be found, but if were talking about every HP here...
 

Van

87t Hardtop
Mar 26, 2006
974
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Oak Grove, OR 97267
"You want to keep a little roughness in the tract between the valve and the fuel injector, to keep the fuel in suspension..." (Doward)

Doward and other participants,
There seems to be an ongoing debate on this section of intake, (between the intake valve and the fuel injector). I fact checked this subject and found this reference, among many others. See : "Gas-flowed or polished cylinder heads, Rough or Smooth", http://www.carbibles.com/fuel_engine_bible_pg2.html

I'd say, a complex subject, one with caveats...
Now, I am new to both automotive engineering and gas laws. I need to know that this technical discussion will be a learning experience. I'm concerned that this discussion might spin out of control. I need to know that genuine facts are being exchanged and when it is not factual, that it's stated as theory, conjecture, debatable or, the writer's opinion.

As with all discussions of this sort, because it can be, doesn't mean it ought to be done. I keep in mind, what is its intended purpose (theoretical, applied), its value to me and its rate of return in relation to cost. None-the-less I'm hooked on this subject and I'm subscribed to it.

Thanks, Van
 

WhtMa71

D0 W3RK
Apr 24, 2007
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Macon, GA
Very good information on timing Doward!
And Van thats a pretty neat link, thanks!

As for the intake ports. Keeping them rough to help the fuel atomize was really only very necessary in the days of the carbureted engine. The intake ports needed to be rough so the fuel wouldnt just run down the walls of the intake port. Fuel injected engines overcome this problem a little easier.

Its still a good idea to keep the intake ports a little rough but not crazy. You dont want mirror polished intake ports but they can still be pretty smooth.

And Rennat, .040 over is about 1mm. Im not sure how to calculate the gain in displacement but im willing to bet its not going to make much more power. Now if you were to be able to go over 3-4mm you will get a noticable increase in displacement.
For instance in a Honda B16(1.6liter) & B18(1.8 liter) the stock bore size is 81mm. Get it sleeved and then bore it to 84 mm and you now roughly have a 1.8 liter and a 2.0 liter.
 

Doward

Banned
Jan 11, 2006
4,245
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36
Alachua, FL
Van, 'rough' is a very relative term. I usually polish my runners, then hit them with 60 or 80 grit paper to 'rough' them up. The idea is keeping a small bit of turbulence, to prevent the fuel from coming out of suspension.
 

Wayne G.

87Turbo 5sp Targa
Apr 19, 2005
213
0
0
Gainesville,Ga.
GrimJack;1009096 said:
Our valvetrain sucks, IMO. Lots of friction to be found there.

Grim, yes may be - but compaired to what type of valve train? Pushrods with
roller rockers and roller lifters? Don't think I have seen "roller" setup on a dual
over head cam setup motorcycle or car?? Just asking what would be better?
 

Keros

Canadian Bacon
Mar 16, 2007
825
0
0
Calgary
At the mention of exhaust manifolds, I recal a discussion I had on the topic with a friend; cast manifold vs long runner welded tube...

My knowledge of the subject was that cast manifolds with [really] short runners was good for spool time/throttle response, and lower boost thresholds (rpm where you start making boost) because of the short run from the cylinder to the turbine... more heat would enter the turbine and less in the engine bay. Cast iron is also known for not only being heavy (disadvantage), but handling heat very very well (advantage).

Welded long runners provide time for the exhaust gas to cool slightly (more prevalant in cheap/uncoated manifolds), which can result in less throttle response on boost and slightly higher boost threshold. But assuming they're pefectly equal length, align the exhaust pulses so that exhaust gases gather at the collector at different times, thus entering the turbine housing more efficiently at high rpm.

Any truth to this? I had always intended on keeping the stock 7M manifold.