Error code 41 - TPS

[Kristian_Wraae]

I have error code 41 and the car runs in limp mode.

I have a 2JZ-GTE engine in my mkIII.

When reading the TSRM it states that an unplugged connector will not set the code. Only faulty circuit, TPS or ecu regarding the VTA circuit will.

Diagnostic trouble code 41 is for the throttle position sensor circuit.
Diagnostic trouble code 47 is for the sub–throttle position sensor circuit.
When the connector for the throttle position sensor(s) is disconnected, diagnostic trouble code 41
or 47 is not displayed. Diagnostic trouble code 41 or 47 is displayed only when there is an open
or short in the VTA signal circuit of the throttle position sensor(s).
Signals from the throttle position sensor(s) are also input to the TRAC ECU, so when a malfunc–
tion occurs on the TRAC side, code 41 or 47 may be displayed.

When I unplug the TPS the code remains.

When reading the diagram I have difficulty seeing how the ECU can detect a faulty TPS from an unplugged cable. A (sorry for expressing myself wrong) possible way would be through the VCC, but the VCC goes to both TPS and the MAP sensor.

So I assume the statement in the TSRM must be wrong.

My TPS measures infinite resistance between VTA and E2 and when replacing the TPS with resistors with the same values for VTA-E2, VCC-E2 and a cable between IDL and E2 the code disappears.

So can anyone confirm that unplugging the TPS sets the error code 41?

 

[jetjock]

The only possible way is through Vcc? That's funny. The only other comment I'll make is an open is an open. Nuff said...

 

[Kristian_Wraae]

The only possible way is through Vcc? That's funny. The only other comment I'll make is an open is an open. Nuff said...

why is that funny?

In theory the ecu could detect that a tps is present through the vcc e2 connection. And a code could be set if tps is present and vta is open. That is how I read the above quote. But I don't think it is true.

 

[jetjock]

It's funny because you say it's the only possible way when anyone with an understanding of electronics would know it's not. And the quote is true.

 

[Kristian_Wraae]

So when I unplug the TPS the code should go away?

And it doesn't.

So that would indicate that I have a wiring problem since the code is present with three different ECUs?

Can you tell me how the ECU can determine if the TPS is unplugged instead of the VTA circuit is open or closed?

Since the code goes away with the appropriate resistors added to VTA-E2, IDL-E2 an d VCC-E2 wouldn't that be unlikely (not impossible) if there is a wiring problem?

 

[jetjock]

The code should be there when the TPS is unplugged. As I said open is open.

...when replacing the TPS with resistors with the same values for VTA-E2, VCC-E2 and a cable between IDL and E2 the code disappears...

Does that sound like a wiring problem? If those values when subbed cause the code to stop what would be the next logical step? Maybe point the meter at the TPS to see what's different?

...My TPS measures infinite resistance between VTA and E2...

Looking at how it works does that sound right? You're not related to suprafanatic are you?

 

[Kristian_Wraae]

Listen, I know my TPS is bad and need replacing.

The reason I am asking all these questions is that the TSRM states that: "When the connector for the throttle position sensor(s) is disconnected, diagnostic trouble code 41
or 47 is not displayed"

That means to me that when unplugging the TPS the code should not be set.

You said that the TSRM is right when saying that the code should not be set when unplugged. Or am I reading the statement from the TSRM wrong?

 

[seoul4korea]

This may seem like a no brainer... but did you try resetting your ECU to see if it comes back?

 

[Kristian_Wraae]

This may seem like a no brainer... but did you try resetting your ECU to see if it comes back?

Yes of course.

I know the TPS is broken. I'm just puzzled by the statement in the TSRM that an unplugged sensor will not set the code.

In theory it will be possible for an ECU to detect the difference between an unplugged sensor and a broken sensor. So in order to thoroughly trouble shoot the issue I unplugged the sensor, reset the ECU and expected the code to not be set according to the statement in the TSRM. And since the code remained even after trying three different ECUs with the unplugged sensor I came to the conclusion that either:

1) (The TSRM is wrong and the code is set with an unplugged sensor) AND (TPS is broken)
or
2) (The TPS is broken AND all three ECUs are broken) OR (TPS is broken and I have a wiring problem) OR (Wiring problem AND ECU problem AND TPS broken)
or
3) (I misread the statement in the TSRM (saying the code is not set) and the code is set with an unplugged sensor) AND (only the TPS is broken)

 

[seoul4korea]

I can give it a shot on my 1J as well, but i'm pretty sure it throws as code so I would lean to say that the TSRM might be wrong.

The other thing I was thinking about was how the ECU reads to the TPS, which if it's like every other sensor it rises in voltage from 0-5 volts till wide open. Which means if it is wide open it should show five volts, but since the circuit is open due to the missing sensor it might not have that feedback.

What JetJock said, "The only possible way is through Vcc? That's funny. The only other comment I'll make is an open is an open. Nuff said... "
holds true as the circuit is open which leaves no way for current to feedback to the ECU.
(Now I have no clue as to the relation of the TSMR as to why it's stated the way it is.)

I may not know what I'm talking about as my knowledge of electrical stuff isn't as great as others.

 

[Kristian_Wraae]

I'm not an electronics wizzard but I have wired in a few things. But I discussed the quote from the TSRM with an electronics engineer (who btw has build his own ECU for a 7mGTE from scratch) and he told me it would be possible for an ECU to distinguish an unplugged sensor from a broken sensor. But on the JZA80 doing so through VCC would be difficult since VCC goes to both TPSs and to the MAP-sensor.

But in general an ECU could test either current through VCC-E2 or connection through IDL-E2. This combined with short or open i VTA-E2 could be interpreted by the ECU as sensor present but broken. No current through VCC-E2 or no connection through EDL-E2 and open in VTA-E2 would then be interpreted as sensor unplugged.

But I fail to see how distinguishing between the two situations (plugged or unplugged sensor) will be of any use since both a broken and an unplugged sensor will need fixing. And in the situation with testing for present sensor through connection through IDL-E2 an unadjusted broken sensor will set no codes.

So I think that the quote is wrong too.

 

[Boosted516]

like seoul4korea said the pcm see's 0-5volt, a good tps will show .5 at closed throttle and 4.5 at WOT. They recognize a problem when they see under .5(open) and over 4.5(short).

 

[Kristian_Wraae]

like seoul4korea said the pcm see's 0-5volt, a good tps will show .5 at closed throttle and 4.5 at WOT. They recognize a problem when they see under .5(open) and over 4.5(short).

Yes, I know that.

The question I'm asking in this thread which Jetjock fails to understand is if the underlined part of the quote in the TSRM is right or wrong.

I have a new TPS here and everything is working fine.

The question was never whether my TPS was bad or not, or how to test if a TPS is bad.

I only asked if it was really true that an unplugged sensor would not set the code as I understand the underlined part of the quote in the first post.

 

[Boosted516]

this is just a stupid thread then...

 

[Kristian_Wraae]

I guess politeness is not something we cherish here on SM.

Nobody bothers to read the actual question and a person who should know better (at least that is what he claims) answers questions that were never asked, and on top of that gives wrong and contradictory answers in an arrogant patronizing tone.

 

[jetjock]

...The question I'm asking in this thread which Jetjock fails to understand is if the underlined part of the quote in the TSRM is right or wrong....

I understood perfectly and answered the question twice. Apparently you missed it both times.

...I have a new TPS here and everything is working fine.....I only asked if it was really true that an unplugged sensor would not set the code...

Here's an idea: now that everything is working fine you can unplug it and see for yourself.

like seoul4korea said the pcm see's 0-5volt, a good tps will show .5 at closed throttle and 4.5 at WOT. They recognize a problem when they see under .5(open) and over 4.5(short).

This, while not entirely accurate, is closest to the way it works.

 

[seoul4korea]

I've already stated I have no clue as to why the TSRM states that:

"(Now I have no clue as to the relation of the TSMR as to why it's stated the way it is.)"

I can only go off of what I know about electrical stuff. In fact I'll go outside and test this on my 1J right now.


Ok here's what I got, I just went outside to test this out and figure out whats going on. First I started the motor then unplugged the TPS, the motor dropped in rpm but NO check light. I then plugged it in and the rpm's returned normally (It only dropped like 50-100 rpm.)

Then to test and make sure the my CEL light was working correctly I unplugged my MAP sensor and recieved a CEL light.

Now keep in mind that I have Greddy Emanage Blue so I have no clue as to whether that could the effect voltage that the ECU is reading. From my knowledge the EMB only reads the TPS voltage, not modify.

So maybe the TSRM has some merrit with that statement.

 

[Kristian_Wraae]

I understood perfectly and answered the question twice. Apparently you missed it both times.



Here's an idea: now that everything is working fine you can unplug it and see for yourself.



This, while not entirely accurate, is closest to the way it works.

Well this is taking some time, primarily because you are not clear in your answers.

Since English is not my primary language I can't rule out that I'm not getting your answers because of that.

But just to recapitulate:

The quote:

When the connector for the throttle position sensor(s) is disconnected, diagnostic trouble code 41
or 47 is not displayed.

As I understand it, it says that when the sensor is disconnected the code is not set.

You say:

The code should be there when the TPS is unplugged

and you say:

And the quote is true.

So it is true that a disconnected sensor will not set the code but an unplugged sensor will set the code?

So in my world that is a contradiction assuming that disconnected and unplugged is the same. So there must be information missing regarding some other condition that will come into effect (ie. engine running or not - while disconnecting).

So maybe it has to do with something being disconnected while running or something unplugged and then started?

As I said my first language is not English so I might miss the finer details but it doesn't make me stupid or ignorant.

Now I have tried to express exactly what is bothering me. Now you can with your infinite wisdom try to fill in the blanks.

 

[Supracentral]

Let's tone it down a couple of decibels folks... :3d_frown:

 

[ifyouaint1sturlast]

I think it's safe to say that the code will be there if the ECU isn't getting the signal it wants - be that no signal or wrong signal.