EGR Block Off Plate Gasket

[joel903]

Well i'm deleting cause:
1. I'm going ffim and no hook-up
2. Less ugly soot in the intake manifold
3. Yes toyota put it there for a reason, but only of U.S. emissions. Japanese 7m don't have such a thing.

Thanks for all the input, i'll be going to O'reilly and pick up a small block chevy gasket and cutting it. This is one gasket i don't wanna have to do again when the engine is in the car.

 

[Poodles]

The only reason i would delete my egr (other than looks) is because if it gets stuck open and you go WOT, things start melting

Or so ive heard. makes sense atleast

Um... no.

Well i'm deleting cause:
1. I'm going ffim and no hook-up
2. Less ugly soot in the intake manifold
3. Yes toyota put it there for a reason, but only of U.S. emissions. Japanese 7m don't have such a thing.

Thanks for all the input, i'll be going to O'reilly and pick up a small block chevy gasket and cutting it. This is one gasket i don't wanna have to do again when the engine is in the car.

1. You can add EGR to a FFIM, it's just a pain.
2. Wasn't aware you could see the inside of your intake manifold. Better not look inside the rest of the engine...
3. Yes, and the Japanese 7M runs a different ECU.

 

[jstricker]

Simple rhetorical question................

If not for emissions, would EGR be on US Cars?

Answer, no it wouldn't. It is an add on to get certain emissions lower. By itself, it does not increase performance or mileage over an engine optimally tuned to run without it.

Now having said all that, I leave my EGR on my street cars and make sure they are working properly If it's removed and certain changes aren't made in the ECU programming, it won't help performance, may hurt it, and may hurt mileage as well.

The EGR IS, however, a purely emissions device.

John Stricker
Russell, KS

 

[boostcraver]

Um... no.



1. You can add EGR to a FFIM, it's just a pain.
2. Wasn't aware you could see the inside of your intake manifold. Better not look inside the rest of the engine...
3. Yes, and the Japanese 7M runs a different ECU.

+2 to #3 above. Was gonna say that but you beat me to it Poodles

 

[Poodles]

Simple rhetorical question................

If not for emissions, would EGR be on US Cars?

Answer, no it wouldn't. It is an add on to get certain emissions lower. By itself, it does not increase performance or mileage over an engine optimally tuned to run without it.

Now having said all that, I leave my EGR on my street cars and make sure they are working properly If it's removed and certain changes aren't made in the ECU programming, it won't help performance, may hurt it, and may hurt mileage as well.

The EGR IS, however, a purely emissions device.

John Stricker
Russell, KS

Incorrect. It increases gas milage (by displacing air and the ECU gives less fuel and advances timing as EGR is also a knock reducer), lowers NOX emissions, and lowers EGT's at cruise. The issue with removing it without replacing the ECU is the ECU thinks it's there, so it advances timing and runs leaner, leading to detonation at part throttle loads (like cruising on the highway and hitting a hill).

This subject has been beaten to death numerous times on this forum. EGR doesn't effect peak performance, but it does effect everything else.

 

[jstricker]

Incorrect. It increases gas milage (by displacing air and the ECU gives less fuel and advances timing as EGR is also a knock reducer), lowers NOX emissions, and lowers EGT's at cruise. The issue with removing it without replacing the ECU is the ECU thinks it's there, so it advances timing and runs leaner, leading to detonation at part throttle loads (like cruising on the highway and hitting a hill).

This subject has been beaten to death numerous times on this forum. EGR doesn't effect peak performance, but it does effect everything else.

As it has on every forum.

So what is "incorrect" about my post? You quoted the whole thing so it's difficult for me to respond to your statement.

The part where I asked if EGR would be on an engine if not for emission requirements? If you believe that to be incorrect you are mistaken. Nearly any engine CAN be more efficient, if optimally tuned, WITHOUT an EGR than with it, if emissions are not a factor.

Two engines identical mechanically, one with EGR and tuned to run optimally with it, one without EGR and tuned to run optimally without it.

Which is more efficient in power and mileage? The one without. Which has lower emissions, particularly NOX, the one with.

It's a tradeoff. (BTW, it's also illegal to remove it on a licensed vehicle).

John Stricker
Russell, KS

 

[Poodles]

EGR will get better milage. Less oxygen and fuel used during cruise means better fuel economy. That's where the less fuel and advanced timing with the ECU tuned for EGR comes from.

The only way to do the same thing is with cylinder deactivation.

 

[joel903]

I'm planning on running a Mines tuned 7mgte ecu, Hks vpc, with apex-i safc2. Hopefully that ecu doesn't have anything to do with emissions as I bought it from RHDJapan a long time ago and just haven't had the time to run it.

 

[jstricker]

EGR will get better milage. Less oxygen and fuel used during cruise means better fuel economy. That's where the less fuel and advanced timing with the ECU tuned for EGR comes from.

The only way to do the same thing is with cylinder deactivation.

There is another way to deliver less oxygen and fuel in cruise...................

Less throttle activation and proper gearing. You cannot introduce a percentage of burned hydrocarbons into the intake stream and increase the BSFC of an engine. That engine, any engine, wants two things to operate, fuel and oxygen. Anything else is at best dead weight and at worst a detriment.

You're talking around my point and I think you know it. You're talking about pulling the EGR off an engine that is tuned for it and comparing that to one with EGR that's tuned for it. That is not the point.

EGR was developed to lower emissions. That's why it exists. It introduces contaminants into the intake air. It raises intake air temperature and lowers EGT. Anything that is not oxygen makes the engine less efficient. The engineers have had over 40 years to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear and have done a remarkably good job of it all things considered but they would much rather not have to deal with it and if not for emissions, they wouldn't be.

The same argument can be made now for injecting urea into the passenger diesel engines (and soon to be class 8 trucks). It's necessary to get them through emissions. Right now it's an exceedingly kludged up system, but it will get better in time. Even though it will get better it will never be as POTENTIALLY efficient as an engine that doesn't require the system.

If it's a fact that EGR will increase mileage in two mechanically identical engines, one tuned for it and the other tuned without, then there must be reams of SAE papers that verify that fact. Care to post a link to them? You won't find any. What you will find is papers that show that an engine that has had EGR removed will get worse mileage, something I agree with, but that's not the point.

Regardless, I'll let this drop as it's taken the thread far from the original question.

Which reminds me..........on the race cars I don't use a gasket, or a back plate. I drill and tap for an NPT plug, 3/4" NPT IIRC.

John Stricker
Russell, KS

 

[Poodles]

OK, fine, I'll stick strictly to what you're saying. Guess what, JDM 7M gets worse gas milage than the USDM (2-3MPG)

EGR reduces pumping losses. I'm not the one talking around the point, you are. EGR is used for cruise where the motor is doing very little. EGR basicly lowers the displacement of the engine.

Here's a hint: EGR wasn't originally developed for emissions.

 

[joel903]

Yeah I honestly thought about tapping it and just plug it with a hex bolt thing like I seen on "voodoo" supra rebuild thread a long time ago.

 

[jstricker]

I do need to correct something I said in a previous post. I mentioned that I thought it was a 1/2" NPT tap and my memory let me down, it's 3/8" NPT. I just got done plugging one on a race head I'm prepping.

The existing hole is just a bit small for the required 37/64" drill bit so you'll have to drill it out before tapping. (If you don't have a 37/64" a 9/16" will work in a pinch, just run it in and out a few times to slightly oversize the hole.) You don't have to drill clear through to the exhaust port, just in about 1.5" or so. Use a good quality tap with a lot of Tap Magic or similar tapping lubricant and then plug it with a brass allen or hex headed pipe thread plug.

John Stricker
Russell, KS

PS: Although Poodles and I might disagree on the value of the EGR beyond emissions in certain specific cases, I believe we're in complete agreement on the fact that if you do this on a street engine it's going to make it almost impossible for your car to pass any kind of emissions test especially Nox. While NC may not have testing (KS doesn't either) that doesn't mean it won't in the future, or that you won't move somewhere that does, or that you won't sell the car and it goes somewhere that does. It is also a violation of federal law to disable the factory emissions equipment on your vehicle. As he pointed out, because your ECM is optimized for use with EGR it may also cause you drivability problems and reduced mileage. Having said that, it's your car, do with it as you will.

 

[joel903]

Thanks for all the feedback. If the mines ecu isn't up to the task ill go with a standalone if I have to.