Did you evolve?

encomiast

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Nick M said:
Originally Posted by Paul Chien(Chairman, Biology Departmnet, University of San Francisco)"
A simple way of putting it is that currently we have about 38 phlya of different groups of animals, but the total number of phyla discovered dring that period of time adds up to over 50 phyla. That means there are more pyla in the very very begining, where we found the first fossils, than exist now. Stephen J Gould has refrenced this as the reverse cone of diversity. The theory of evolution implies that things get more complex and get more and more diverse from one single origin. But the whole thing turns out to be reversed-we have more diverse groups inthe very beginning, and in fact more of them die off over time and we have less now.
Well, I think fossil findings are to be taken with a pinch of salt.
First, you never really know what branch of a phyla the fossil you just found is coming from. As somebody else stated previously, evolution is not a linear process. There are many branches, many of them will eventually exstinct, e.g. when environmental conditions change too rapidly for the subject to be able to adapt to them.
Second, a fossil finding can only be a very limited snapshot; all of the fossil findings have to be assembled like a puzzle, and like with a puzzle you can't really make assumptions on the final picture until you have like 90% of it complete. During the completion of the puzzle, the picture of what you think will be the result can change a few times.
The thing with the fossil puzzle is that you never know whether you currently are at 5% or at 50% or at 80%. If I had to guess, I'd say we are at 5%.


Nick M said:
When you are exposed to things that will force a mutation. Mutations are real and are observed.
This answers your own question on why there were so many species which hardly changed/evolved over time. There was probably not enough selection pressure to make them evolve more. Evolution doesn't say that there is constant change, but that change happens when it needs to happen.

Another fact: About 70% of our genetic sequence is identical to that of a drosophila melanogaster fruit fly and 99% of our genetic sequence is identical to that of a chimpanzee. So there aren't so many genes that have to be "created new" at each transition between species. It's only the relations between the genes that change. And from mutations or even man-made alterations to the genome you can easily see what big of an effect a single changed gene can have.

Another quite important factor in the discussion of creationism vs. the theory of evolution is the way our brain works. The human brain "instinctively" tries to find regularities and correlations everywhere. Studies have shown that people think to see regularities even in completely random number sequences where there are no regularities. This indicates that it's very hard for us humans to grasp that such complex things as the human brain could evolve by trial-and-error.

Speaking of complexity, I'd like to address the very popular creationist argument of the "perfect" human eye: the human eye is in fact far from perfect, otherwise there wouldn't be so many people (including myself) with ametropia. Also, if the eye was "perfect", we could see in the dark and even perceive infrared light like many animals do. Again, this is probably due to the lack of selection pressure - we simply don't have any benefit from perceiving IR light.

Just my 2psi...
 

SupraDerk

The Backseat Flyer
Sep 17, 2005
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lagged said:
right, that is why i have found tesla's theories interesting. tesla refused to believe that there was a spacetime "mat". this is intriguing to me because thinking of gravity as some type of wave makes it more tangible than "spacetime" which

Tesla and his theories have no credibility. He never even published the details of his theories or even the mathmatics behind what he claimed! Einstein did, you can go rework everything out if you so choose. Also, Tesla said that there is no way that matter and energy are related...one can't come from the other. But if that were the case, then particle accelerators wouldn't show us shit (which is the opposite as they show us the inner workins of the microscopic world)...and moreso, Nagasaki and Hiroshima would NOT have been destroyed some 60 years ago. Tesla FTL...

lagged said:
we have no way to observe or test for its existance, other than the fact that gravity exists.

Are you serious? Scientists have observed the bending of light around blackholes, planets, stars...you name it, confirming that space is indeed curved. Not to mention that satelites and the spacestations have to have their clocks modified to be able to synch up with time here on Earth due to what was exactly slated to happen said by General Relativity.

lagged said:
i personally believe that anything is possible, and i love reading about any well thought out theory, even string theory which is barely a theory at all.

Man you really need to read up on this stuff...String theory or M-theory as it has now become is one of the most plausible theories in existence right now as it is one of the only theories conceived that is able to link General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics together...accounts for the make up of the universe...and accounts for the behavior of things on the macro and microscopic levels.

-Derek
 

lagged

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SupraDerk said:
Man you really need to read up on this stuff...String theory or M-theory as it has now become is one of the most plausible theories in existence right now as it is one of the only theories conceived that is able to link General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics together...accounts for the make up of the universe...and accounts for the behavior of things on the macro and microscopic levels.

-Derek


Peter Woit of Columbia University dosnt seem to think so. He makes many valid points on why string theory isnt.

anyway, IANAP, i just like to read about it in my spare time.

oh, and you cant say tesla has no credibility. Alternating Current for example, a pretty important part of all of our lives wouldnt you say? that, among other things. maybe you should read up about it?
 

Nick M

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encomiast said:
The thing with the fossil puzzle is that you never know whether you currently are at 5% or at 50% or at 80%. If I had to guess, I'd say we are at 5%.
Actually, after all this time, more than 100 years, we have gone backwards. There aren't missing branches, but the whole trunk.


This answers your own question on why there were so many species which hardly changed/evolved over time. There was probably not enough selection pressure to make them evolve more. Evolution doesn't say that there is constant change, but that change happens when it needs to happen.
Where are these species?

Another fact: About 70% of our genetic sequence is identical to that of a drosophila melanogaster fruit fly and 99% of our genetic sequence is identical to that of a chimpanzee. So there aren't so many genes that have to be "created new" at each transition between species. It's only the relations between the genes that change. And from mutations or even man-made alterations to the genome you can easily see what big of an effect a single changed gene can have.
Yes, another fact that does not advance evolution. We share a planet. All the species on the ground share very similar needs of survival. So guess what, we are designed similarly.

Another quite important factor in the discussion of creationism vs. the theory of evolution is the way our brain works.
I am on luch, so a more thorough answer will be tonight. However your condesnding remarks won't go unoticed. "Creationism" is a term like socialism, nazism, fascism, communism, are things that people follow. Creation is an event. Best case scenario is that you can call it the theory of creation, as we have evidence of creation, we are here, but there is no evidence of evolution. It hasn't been ovserved. So it is only a hypothesis.

The human brain "instinctively" tries to find regularities and correlations everywhere. Studies have shown that people think to see regularities even in completely random number sequences where there are no regularities. This indicates that it's very hard for us humans to grasp that such complex things as the human brain could evolve by trial-and-error.

Speaking of complexity, I'd like to address the very popular creationist argument of the "perfect" human eye: the human eye is in fact far from perfect, otherwise there wouldn't be so many people (including myself) with ametropia. Also, if the eye was "perfect", we could see in the dark and even perceive infrared light like many animals do. Again, this is probably due to the lack of selection pressure - we simply don't have any benefit from perceiving IR light.

Just my 2psi...
Nobody said it was perfect. But it is extremely complex of a design. And the idea that if you throw all the parts to a telescope in a box unassembled, that over time, it will self assemble is preposterous. See you tonight.
 
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Joel W.

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Where are these species?

There are still horseshoe crabs, sharks, alligators, crocks, bats, cockroaches, ants, lizards, mosquitos and spiders around today to name a few..

"The first fossil records of the horseshoe crab go back 425 million years, yet this living fossil still lives along present-day shores. Its tail, which allows it to walk with ease across the sand and which is used for steering, its two eyes with their exceedingly complex structures, and all its other unique features have remained unchanged over the last 425 million years."

That is amazing to me that they have not changed.

http://www.living-fossils.com/3_1.php


Edit: Yikes, my link above really slams on my case for evolution...:(
Except for the fact I also believe they evolved into thier enviroment so well that they did not need to evolve again..:dunno:
 

Nick M

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There are still horseshoe crabs, sharks, alligators, crocks, bats, cockroaches, ants, lizards, mosquitos and spiders around today to name a few..

"The first fossil records of the horseshoe crab go back 425 million years, yet this living fossil still lives along present-day shores. Its tail, which allows it to walk with ease across the sand and which is used for steering, its two eyes with their exceedingly complex structures, and all its other unique features have remained unchanged over the last 425 million years."

That is amazing to me that they have not changed
Don't you ever wonder about the numbers just made up like 425 million years ago? Especially when you know rates of decay are assumed. They are acurate to the last few thousand years when we know how much carbon 12 and 14 is there.

I don't get your point about living fossils.
 

SupraDerk

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lagged said:
Peter Woit of Columbia University dosnt seem to think so. He makes many valid points on why string theory isnt.

anyway, IANAP, i just like to read about it in my spare time.

oh, and you cant say tesla has no credibility. Alternating Current for example, a pretty important part of all of our lives wouldnt you say? that, among other things. maybe you should read up about it?

You were refering to Tesla and this theories on gravity...so the logical assumption to be made when I say him and his theories have no credibility...would be on Tesla's theories of gravity. For you to bring something completely different into the argument is pretty rediculous...

And who is Peter Woit in the grand scheme of things? Where are these valid points? That's like still saying the world is flat...you're going to have people fighting new concepts every step of the way...


Nick M said:
Lefties are off the deep end. I don't know what else to say.

Far from the left kind sir...far from it...


-Derek
 

encomiast

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Mar 31, 2005
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Nick M said:
Actually, after all this time, more than 100 years, we have gone backwards. There aren't missing branches, but the whole trunk.
What I was trying to say is that we can never have a complete picture of what existed on earth millions of years ago. We don't how how many species have existed at all and how many of them have been conserved as fossils, and we don't know if the fraction of species that were actually conserved over time are the same for every age. Maybe only 10% of the species from the Jurassic period survived in form of fossils, but 90% of the species from the later Cretaceous period. You just can't know.

Nick M said:
Where are these species?
Like Joel W. already said, there are many reptiles that obviously didn't change (at least not much) for a very very long time.
It seems to me that in trying to disprove other's arguments, you overlook that they might even be supporting the theory of creation.
There are species which didn't evolve for a very long time. This might support the theory of creation, but it also doesn't weaken the theory of evolution. So I think we can drop this point.

Nick M said:
Yes, another fact that does not advance evolution. We share a planet. All the species on the ground share very similar needs of survival. So guess what, we are designed similarly.
No, the point is that only the components, the genetic sequence are identical. The functions of those genes are still different. It's like two different windows programs using the same Windows-provided routine for reading data from harddisk. They use the same routine, but do different things with the data being read. That way (among other points) you can tell e.g. a Linux or a Mac program from a Windows program. And maybe a terrestrial lifeform from some alien lifeform, who knows.

Nick M said:
Best case scenario is that you can call it the theory of creation, as we have evidence of creation, we are here, but there is no evidence of evolution. It hasn't been ovserved. So it is only a hypothesis.
Of course evolution is only a theory, just like everything in science is only theory. You can never really be sure that no one will some day come up with an observation the theory fails to explain or to explain with slight modifications.
Every generally accepted theory like the theory of relativity may be able to explain 99.999999% of the observations but can still fail on that 0.000001% which maybe just hasn't been found yet.
This discussion is about whether observations have been made which are suited to disprove the theory of evolution.

Nick M said:
Nobody said it was perfect. But it is extremely complex of a design. And the idea that if you throw all the parts to a telescope in a box unassembled, that over time, it will self assemble is preposterous. See you tonight.
Well, most adherents of the theory of creation do say that it was a perfect design. You're right, you didn't, sorry for that.
And sorry again, but to compare a box with parts of a telescope with life is ridiculous. It's a rather worn-out argument of self-proclaimed creationists.

Nick M said:
Don't you ever wonder about the numbers just made up like 425 million years ago? Especially when you know rates of decay are assumed. They are acurate to the last few thousand years when we know how much carbon 12 and 14 is there.
Most dating that far back is done through the analysis of the different stratums. So even if you can't tell how old a fossil is exactly, you can still draw comparisons between fossil findings. That way you can tell e.g. that turtles as they are known today survived the extinction of dinosaurs.


Sorry if I fail to make myself clear enough at times. It's rather hard for me to discuss such complex topics in english, but I do my best :)
 

Joel W.

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Nick: Encomiast stated that sometimes a lack of selective pressure can keep an organism from evolving over time. You seemed to have asked for examples of these species. That is why I posted some examples of living fossils.

But the link I posted, actually supported your views that life showed up pre evolved. That was not my plan. :naughty: I was just trying to show examples of life that were successful over time and that it was not forced to change or evolve further.

As for carbon dating, It is just a tool, It seems to work well for things of a known age so I don't know why it would not work for things of unknown ages. Like all science, it should be used in conjunction with other evidence (relative dating or the order at which things are found) and other tools.

http://www.museum.vic.gov.au/prehistoric/what/fossilage.html#absolute

Edit: Here are some different ways scientists date objects.
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/dating

Edit2:Here is a some info on the accuracy of fossils and dating methods.
http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/benton.html

Edit3: Here is an excellent resource for the theory of evolution.
http://www.atheistresource.co.uk/science.html#evolution


This is a good discussion. I am glad that we are able to have it peacefully and rationally. I like to look at all options and this is a nice way to exchange ideas. Big thanks to all...
 

lagged

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SupraDerk said:
You were refering to Tesla and this theories on gravity...so the logical assumption to be made when I say him and his theories have no credibility...would be on Tesla's theories of gravity. For you to bring something completely different into the argument is pretty rediculous...

And who is Peter Woit in the grand scheme of things? Where are these valid points? That's like still saying the world is flat...you're going to have people fighting new concepts every step of the way...

Far from the left kind sir...far from it...


-Derek

i was speaking about tesla in general. peter woit wrote an entire book on the problems with string theory. you can look it up on your own.

i kind of get the feeling that you are taking all of this a little too seriously, so youre pretty much no fun to talk with. :)
 

Nick M

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Joel, there are at least 76 ways to date the Earth. Just so you know. And since we don't know the amount of carbon 14 in the atmosphere in the past, carbon dating is speculation, when trying to date more than just a few thousand years.

Lets go back to how can this be. How has the earths atmosphere aquired so much oxygen? Too many processes should have absorbed oxygen on an evolving earth. If the early earth had oxygen in its atmosphere, compounds(amino acids) needed for life to evolve would have been destroyed by oxidation. But if there had been no oxygen, there would have been no upper atmosphere. Without ozone to shield the earth, the suns ultraviolet radiation would destroy life. Talk about a catch 22. The only known way for both ozone and life to be here is for both to come into existence simultaneously.

And here are links to information. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=alien+UFO+area+51&btnG=Google+Search Which is why I don't post too many links.
 

Nick M

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No, the point is that only the components, the genetic sequence are identical. The functions of those genes are still different. It's like two different windows programs using the same Windows-provided routine for reading data from harddisk. They use the same routine, but do different things with the data being read. That way (among other points) you can tell e.g. a Linux or a Mac program from a Windows program. And maybe a terrestrial lifeform from some alien lifeform, who knows.
Well it was brought up that because we are 99% similar with a chimp. Why is that important? What is the point of a chimp lung to be like our lung if not becuase we breathe the same air on the same planet?

And sorry again, but to compare a box with parts of a telescope with life is ridiculous. It's a rather worn-out argument of self-proclaimed creationists.
Is it? Sir Issac Newton doesn't think so. But this is the suggestion of evolution. That if all the parts to life are sitting together that with time, they will just form up on their own. How is that different. It isnt. And I know you don't want to debate hypothesis, theory and law. As there are stated laws. As pointed out in the first post, The LAW of biogenisis states that life only comes from other life, BECAUSE THAT IS THE ONLY THING EVER OBSERVED. Which is why the push to make the earth be billions of years old. If the earth is only a few thousand years old, atheists are in trouble. And so is evolution.

Most dating that far back is done through the analysis of the different stratums. So even if you can't tell how old a fossil is exactly, you can still draw comparisons between fossil findings. That way you can tell e.g. that turtles as they are known today survived the extinction of dinosaurs.
How do you classify fossils with human footprints and dinos in the same strata? Found in Russia and Arizona. I know, as most do that most fossils are found in sedimentary layers formed during the flood.

Sorry if I fail to make myself clear enough at times. It's rather hard for me to discuss such complex topics in english, but I do my best
You have been more clear than half of the Americans on the net.
 

Joel W.

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Nick: :icon_conf If you are not even willing to read the link to dispute it or not, then why should I even bother to try explaining anything else to you. The answers are there in detail based on science facts.

Yes Carbon 14 is useless for dating fossils older than 70,000 years... Again,,,there are other ways like dating the age of the rock the fossil was found in. (AKA Radiometric Dating),,, if you would look at my links. :3d_frown:

I assumed you started this thread to try and find some "missing" answers. Perhaps I assumed wrong... :dunno:

1629seo.jpg
 

Joel W.

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If you won't go to the link, I will bring the link to you.. :)

link 3 said:
Our understanding of the shape and pattern of the history of life depends on the accuracy of fossils and dating methods. Some critics, particularly religious fundamentalists, argue that neither fossils nor dating can be trusted, and that their interpretations are better. Other critics, perhaps more familiar with the data, question certain aspects of the quality of the fossil record and of its dating. These skeptics do not provide scientific evidence for their views. Current understanding of the history of life is probably close to the truth because it is based on repeated and careful testing and consideration of data.

The rejection of the validity of fossils and of dating by religious fundamentalists creates a problem for them:

They cannot deny that hundreds of millions of fossils reside in display cases and drawers around the world. Perhaps some would argue that these specimens - huge skeletons of dinosaurs, blocks from ancient shell beds containing hundreds of specimens, delicately preserved fern fronds -- have been manufactured by scientists to confuse the public. This is clearly ludicrous.

Otherwise, religious fundamentalists are forced to claim that all the fossils are of the same age, somehow buried in the rocks by some extraordinary catastrophe, perhaps Noah's flood. How exactly they believe that all the dinosaurs, mammoths, early humans, heavily-armored fishes, trilobites, ammonites, and the rest could all live together has never been explained. Nor indeed why the marine creatures were somehow 'drowned' by the flood.

The rejection of dating by religious fundamentalists is easier for them to make, but harder for them to demonstrate. The fossils occur in regular sequences time after time; radioactive decay happens, and repeated cross testing of radiometric dates confirms their validity.

Fossil sequences were recognized and established in their broad outlines long before Charles Darwin had even thought of evolution. Early geologists, in the 1700s and 1800s, noticed how fossils seemed to occur in sequences: certain assemblages of fossils were always found below other assemblages. The first work was done in England and France.

Around 1800, William Smith in England, who was a canal surveyor, noticed that he could map out great tracts of rocks on the basis of their contained fossils. The sequences he saw in one part of the country could be correlated (matched) precisely with the sequences in another. He, and others at the time, had discovered the first principles of stratigraphy -- that older rocks lie below younger rocks and that fossils occur in a particular, predictable order.

Then, geologists began to build up the stratigraphic column, the familiar listing of divisions of geological time -- Jurassic, Cretaceous, Tertiary, and so on. Each time unit was characterized by particular fossils. The scheme worked all round the world, without fail.

From the 1830s onwards, geologists noted how fossils became more complex through time. The oldest rocks contained no fossils, then came simple sea creatures, then more complex ones like fishes, then came life on land, then reptiles, then mammals, and finally humans. Clearly, there was some kind of 'progress' going on.

All became clear, of course, in 1859 when Charles Darwin published his "On the origin of species". The 'progress' shown by the fossils was a documentation of the grand pattern of evolution through long spans of time.

Since 1859, paleontologists, or fossil experts, have searched the world for fossils. In the past 150 years they have not found any fossils that Darwin would not have expected. New discoveries have filled in the gaps, and shown us in unimaginable detail the shape of the great 'tree of life'.

Darwin and his contemporaries could never have imagined the improvements in resolution of stratigraphy that have come since 1859, nor guessed what fossils were to be found in the southern continents, nor predicted the huge increase in the number of amateur and professional paleontologists worldwide. All these labors have not led to a single unexpected finding such as a human fossil from the time of the dinosaurs, or a Jurassic dinosaur in the same rocks as Silurian trilobites.

Paleontologists now apply sophisticated mathematical techniques to assess the relative quality of particular fossil successions, as well as the entire fossil record.

These demonstrate that, of course, we do not know everything (and clearly never will), but we know enough. Today, innovative techniques provide further confirmation and understanding of the history of life. Biologists actually have at their disposal several independent ways of looking at the history of life - not only from the order of fossils in the rocks, but also through phylogenetic trees.

Phylogenetic trees are the family trees of particular groups of plants or animals, showing how all the species relate to each other.

Phylogenetic trees are drawn up mathematically, using lists of morphological (external form) or molecular (gene sequence) characters.

Modern phylogenetic trees have no input from stratigraphy, so they can be used in a broad way to make comparisons between tree shape and stratigraphy.
The majority of test cases show good agreement, so the fossil record tells the same story as the molecules enclosed in living organisms.

Dating in geology may be relative or absolute. Relative dating is done by observing fossils, as described above, and recording which fossil is younger, which is older. The discovery of means for absolute dating in the early 1900s was a huge advance. The methods are all based on radioactive decay:

Certain naturally occurring elements are radioactive, and they decay, or break down, at predictable rates.
Chemists measure the half-life of such elements, i.e., the time it takes for half of the radioactive parent element to break down to the stable daughter element. Sometimes, one isotope, or naturally occurring form, of an element decays into another, more stable form of the same element.
By comparing the proportions of parent to daughter element in a rock sample, and knowing the half-life, the age can be calculated.

Scientists can use different chemicals for absolute dating:

The best-known absolute dating technique is carbon-14 dating, which archaeologists prefer to use. However, the half-life of carbon-14 is only 5730 years, so the method cannot be used for materials older than about 70,000 years.

Radiometric dating involves the use of isotope series, such as rubidium/strontium, thorium/lead, potassium/argon, argon/argon, or uranium/lead, all of which have very long half-lives, ranging from 0.7 to 48.6 billion years. Subtle differences in the relative proportions of the two isotopes can give good dates for rocks of any age.
The first radiometric dates, generated about 1920, showed that the Earth was hundreds of millions, or billions, of years old. Since then, geologists have made many tens of thousands of radiometric age determinations, and they have refined the earlier estimates. A key point is that it is no longer necessary simply to accept one chemical determination of a rock's age. Age estimates can be cross-tested by using different isotope pairs. Results from different techniques, often measured in rival labs, continually confirm each other.

Every few years, new geologic time scales are published, providing the latest dates for major time lines. Older dates may change by a few million years up and down, but younger dates are stable. For example, it has been known since the 1960s that the famous Cretaceous-Tertiary boundary, the line marking the end of the dinosaurs, was 65 million years old. Repeated recalibrations and retests, using ever more sophisticated techniques and equipment, cannot shift that date. It is accurate to within a few thousand years. With modern, extremely precise, methods, error bars are often only1% or so.

Conclusion

The fossil record is fundamental to an understanding of evolution. Fossils document the order of appearance of groups and they tell us about some of the amazing plants and animals that died out long ago. Fossils can also show us how major crises, such as mass extinctions, happened, and how life recovered after them. If the fossils, or the dating of the fossils, could be shown to be inaccurate, all such information would have to be rejected as unsafe. Geologists and paleontologists are highly self-critical, and they have worried for decades about these issues. Repeated, and tough, regimes of testing have confirmed the broad accuracy of the fossils and their dating, so we can read the history of life from the rocks with confidence
 

solid400

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Nick M said:
Well it was brought up that because we are 99% similar with a chimp. Why is that important? What is the point of a chimp lung to be like our lung if not becuase we breathe the same air on the same planet?

Is it? Sir Issac Newton doesn't think so. But this is the suggestion of evolution. That if all the parts to life are sitting together that with time, they will just form up on their own. How is that different. It isnt. And I know you don't want to debate hypothesis, theory and law. As there are stated laws. As pointed out in the first post, The LAW of biogenisis states that life only comes from other life, BECAUSE THAT IS THE ONLY THING EVER OBSERVED. Which is why the push to make the earth be billions of years old. If the earth is only a few thousand years old, atheists are in trouble. And so is evolution.

How do you classify fossils with human footprints and dinos in the same strata? Found in Russia and Arizona. I know, as most do that most fossils are found in sedimentary layers formed during the flood.

You have been more clear than half of the Americans on the net.


So when you say the fossils are found in layers formed during the flood do you mean the supposed great flood that covered the earth?
 

encomiast

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Mar 31, 2005
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Nick M said:
Well it was brought up that because we are 99% similar with a chimp. Why is that important? What is the point of a chimp lung to be like our lung if not becuase we breathe the same air on the same planet?
Because you stated earlier:
Macro evolution is an increase in complexity, as opposed to micro evolution, which is a reshuffling of genes. Macro evolution is new genes. This is another scientific law, Mendels law.
You see, it's not like there would have to be a lot of "new genes" to be created during each transition. Most genes are already there, they just have to change their function through mutation. It's just a very lengthy step-by-step process.
BTW AFAIK Mendel's laws were about inheritance and recombination of certain characteristics during regular reproduction, not about new characteristics triggered by mutation which is what evolution is all about?

Nick M said:
Is it? Sir Issac Newton doesn't think so. But this is the suggestion of evolution. That if all the parts to life are sitting together that with time, they will just form up on their own. How is that different. It isnt.
You can't be serious on that? Ever seen a box of telescope parts reproduce, either by cleavage or mating? That's like saying "a million years old rock doesn't blow headgaskets, so why should my 16 years old 7M-GTE?".

Nick M said:
If the earth is only a few thousand years old, atheists are in trouble. And so is evolution.
You are seriously doubting that earth is older than "a few thousand years"?
Ok, make that rock from my example above a 3000 years old one ;)

solid400 said:
So when you say the fossils are found in layers formed during the flood do you mean the supposed great flood that covered the earth?
ditto?

Nick M said:
You have been more clear than half of the Americans on the net.
Thanks!

I think this discussion is going nowhere. You won't change your mind and I can't take you or your arguments serious enough (sorry!) to change mine either.
Not too long ago, people thought to know that thunder and lightning were sent by God/Thor/Allah or some other unknown force. Today we know that it's pure physics (unless you are doubting this too?).
It's not much different from what we are discussing here.
I'd really love to know what mysteries of today mankind will have solved in 500 years from now (that is if mankind will survive that long). Maybe both evolution and creationist theories will be proven wrong and something completely new will explain everything. But for now, I'll stick with evolution as it is by far the most appealing theory to me.


BTW to answer your thread title: yes I did evolve, from a Honda driver to a Supra lover :D
 

Joel W.

Just A Jedi
Nov 7, 2005
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Washington
Nick M said:
Is it? Sir Issac Newton doesn't think so. .

Argumentum ad verecundiam

The Appeal to Authority uses admiration of a famous person to try and win support for an assertion. For example:
"Isaac Newton was a genius and he believed in God."​
This line of argument isn't always completely bogus when used in an inductive argument; for example, it may be relevant to refer to a widely-regarded authority in a particular field, if you're discussing that subject. For example, we can distinguish quite clearly between:
"Hawking has concluded that black holes give off radiation"​
and
"Penrose has concluded that it is impossible to build an intelligent computer"​
Hawking is a physicist, and so we can reasonably expect his opinions on black hole radiation to be informed.

Penrose is a mathematician, so it is questionable whether he is well-qualified to speak on the subject of machine intelligence.

Isaac Newton was the greatest English mathematician of his generation.

NEXT... ;)