crank pulley question..

bigaaron

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I would really like to see a set of main bearings or a crank damaged solely because of an undamped crank pulley on a 7m or jz engine.

On the other hand, I have personally been in a car that had the stock 1jz crank pulley separate and fly off at speed.

As far as ATI 7m crank pulleys go, it's a pain in the ass to install and it's expensive. The stock crank bolt will not work because theirs has a smaller ID hole for the bolt head. The ID of the hole for the crank is several thousandths too small and needs to be honed to fit, but good luck using a normal honing tool since there is a keyway in it.

Check out the last post in this thread:
http://clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3261654

All I keep seeing is a people who have never run an undamped pulley say how bad it is because they read ATI's website, yet I have never heard anyone say they had any problems running an undamped pulley. I would say ATI would not be the best place to accurately research this, seeing as they are trying to sell you a $400 pulley.
 
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jdub

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bigaaron;1094764 said:
I would really like to see a set of main bearings or a crank damaged solely because of an undamped crank pulley on a 7m or jz engine.

On the other hand, I have personally been in a car that had the stock 1jz crank pulley separate and fly off at speed.

As far as ATI 7m crank pulleys go, it's a pain in the ass to install and it's expensive. The stock crank bolt will not work because theirs has a smaller ID hole for the bolt head. The ID of the hole for the crank is several thousandths too small and needs to be honed to fit, but good luck using a normal honing tool since there is a keyway in it.

Check out the last post in this thread:

http://clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3261654

All I keep seeing is a people who have never run an undamped pulley say how bad it is because they read ATI's website, yet I have never heard anyone say they had any problems running an undamped pulley. I would say ATI would not be the best place to accurately research this, seeing as they are trying to sell you a $400 pulley.





Doesn't surprise me considering the condition of the rubber some of the stock dampers I've seen. Like I said, the ATI is better quality, 5 lbs lighter, and cheaper than the OEM damper. To fit it, all you have to do is heat it up in a pan of water, apply some anti-seize and it will go right on...no hone necessary. Turning the crank bolt flange down to size takes a whole 5 minutes ;)

Aaron I used to feel a solid crank pulley was no big deal...until I looked into what harmonics do (the correct term is Torsional vibration). It's not the bearings or even the crank so much due to it's mass (harmonics do stress it though). It's the rods and the rod bolts...Torsional vibration induces stress fractures at the molecular level...if the rod has a factory flaw, it will make it worse. You'll get away with it for a time...might even get away with it a long time if the entire rotating assembly is zero balanced. But, the failure you will see is a thrown rod and I'll bet you have seen a couple of those ;)

And I'm not basing my opinion on ATI's website...it's the engineering involved. If you want a very basic explanation of torsional vibration and what damping does:
http://www.epi-eng.com/mechanical_engineering_basics/vibration_intro.htm
As much as I hate using Wekipedia ;) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsional_vibration

In any case, do what you want...like I said, no way I'd ever use one.
 

Evilempire1.3JZ-GTE

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Removing over 50% of the reciprocating mass pulling on the front of a crank and under driving the pully system will not damage a JZ engine especialy the 1JZ "Factors such as shorter stroke" come into play with the 1JZ the piston travels at a much slower rate and haves virtualy no imbalance measurable.

If you dont believe me run your 1JZ with a so called oem balancer then run it at the harmonic where vibration would be the highest on our engine, then do the same with an aftermarket pully tell me how much of a difference you feel in the engine vibration. Now compare the two in performance again there you will notice something.::dead horse::

Alot of specificaly designed race engines where they pull 5-10 X the power of the engine usually dont even run accessorys or even a crank pully they run everything off the battery and recharge it after the event being they would be concerned about a high strained engine completing a compatitions they if any thing would be more concerned if the myth was true.

http://www.unorthodoxracing.com/faq_pulleys.html

4) "Is my crank pulley a harmonic/torsional/vibration damper or a harmonic balancer?"
People are getting their crank pulleys confused with the harmonic dampers found on some domestic V6 & V8 engines. "Harmonic Balancer" is a term used loosely in the automotive industry. Technically, this type of device does not exist. The "balancer" part comes from engines that are externally balanced and have a counterweight cast into the damper. None of the applications we offer use a counterweight as part of the pulley, as these engines are all internally balanced.

The pulleys on most of the new import and smaller domestic engines have an elastomer (rubber ring) incorporated into the pulley making them look similar to a harmonic damper. The elastomer in the OEM pulley serves as an isolator, which is there to suppress noise from the engine accessories; the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator. This is what the manufacturers call NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) when referring to noticeable noise and vibration in the passenger compartment. It is important to realize in these applications, the elastomer is inadequate in size and durability to act as an effective torsional damper. If you look at the pulleys on some imports there is no rubber to be found at all. We have samples of these, mostly from Acura/Honda B & D Series engines, Nissan Altima, 1.8L Eclipse, 2.3L Fords, Chrysler 2.2L's, and 1.8L VW's just to mention a few. Most owners who have installed our pulleys notice the engine actually feels smoother. This is result of replacing the heavy crank pulley with our crank pulley. NVH is variable and unique to every car. NVH will increase with the installation of an aftermarket intake and/or exhaust, for example. Think of OEM intake systems in newer cars, they use baffles and resonators in the intake to quiet all the intake noise. Aftermarket intakes eliminate these resonators and create dramatic increases in engine noise from the throttle opening and closing. So to most tuners, certain types of NVH can make the driving experience more enjoyable.

The purpose of a traditional harmonic damper is to protect against crank failure from torsional movement and frequencies of high amplitude. This is not necessary in most modern engines because of the many advances in engine design and materials. Factors such as shorter stroke length, smaller displacement, piston dwell time, piston pin off-set, power output, etc., do determine when and how these harmonics and torsional movements occur. More importantly the actual tune of the engine, espcially with modified vheciles, is the biggest factor in potential engine damage. Poor tuning leads to detonation which is an engine killer that no damper can stop.

Again, there is a lot of internet hearsay about solid crank pulleys. When engine problems occur, too often people are quick to blame the pulley first, rather than taking the time to look logically into why there was a problem. We hope that after reading this you will understand our crank pulleys better.


6) "Will these pulleys cause premature engine bearing wear?"
This is a fear many prospective owners have and is a valid concern since we are dealing directly with the rotating assembly. Fortunately it is another urban myth with no basis in fact. The fact is our pulleys have the opposite effect on engine bearings. The combination of tight tolerances, precise quality control, perfect balance, and dramatic weight loss versus the stock pulleys reduces stress loads on your engine, extending the service life of your engine. Engine bearing problems are purely associated to poor engine maintenance, use of heavier than factory recommended oils, improper engine building practices (which includes poor balancing), excessively revving of engines when they are cold, and owners expecting their factory oil pumps to handle engine power outputs beyond 3, 4, even 5+ times the stock power levels.
 

jdub

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You know Evil, you're using the "I'm doing it, so it must be OK" line of reasoning to support your position...it's obvious you don't have a clue how a damper works. Unorthodox Racing (as Aaron said about ATI) is in business to sell these...I don't guess the info on their website is bias in any way?

A couple of things I'm going to point out (then I'm going to shut up since you're not going to listen anyway):

1) the J series motor is an in-line 6, not a 4 cylinder...the crankshaft is long and flexible compared to other motors. Torsional vibration has a larger impact as a result.
2) Torsional vibration occurs as a result of the way a motor works...torque is not produced evenly through the rotation of the crank, combustion produces a greater force after TDC, and you have the moment inertia of the pistons/rods. Essentially you are getting a series of pulses and this is what produces torsional vibration. You can minimize the effects, but not eliminate it using the engineering techniques posted from the Unorthodox site.
3) Resonance will occur at the natural frequency of the rotating assembly...the question is at what frequency. A damper does not eliminate vibration, it dissipates amplitude peaks and energy, especially at the points where resonance occurs. An automotive damper is "tuned" for the harmonics of the specific motor...the elastomer in these dampers is more than adequate (regardless what Unorthodox says).
4) Toyota engineers designed the J series motor with a damper. I guess they just wanted to add weight to the crank and increase expense huh? Or, is it they didn't know what they were doing?
5) Since you brought up racing, SFI requires a damper (spec 18.1)...not too sure where you got racing motors don't require one. Is it just because SFI wants to kill a few HP or is it they don't know what they were talking about either? As you pointed out, a race motor is not exactly concerned with the accessories...think it might be a high HP motor might just grenade due to the harmonics?

Like I said before, it's not the bearings or the crank that's the problem...it's the stress induced on the internal structure of the rods, caps and bolts. If using a Unorthodox pulley is worth your motor to you to gain 5 HP, then have at it...you just might get away with it, then on the other hand, you might not ;)
I can't make that justification...especially when the ATI damper is available that's lighter than OEM and it meets SFI 18.1 spec.
 

figgie

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I am jumping more on here in support to what jdub stated.

BigAaron.

The ATI marketing is no more than almost a copy and paste of what Dinan motorworks has stated numerous times. There is even an Article by Toyota Research and Development on the very topic.

http://www.dinancars.com/bmw/techni...pulleys-and-understanding-the-harmonic-damper

everything Dinan posts confers what jdub stated and what I knew hence why the 7m pulley came to be.

here is CircleTracks magazine tech article on the very same subject.

http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/crankshaft_tech_terminology/index.html

of course that does not mean ALL motors require one. The ones that DO require one are the wet noodles I-6 and the heavy out of balance V-8. Most I-4 do not.
 

aphxero

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Here's my $.02 from a drifting perspective.

Just last week I had a crank pulley come apart at the track. I was drifting for a couple of hours kicking the hell out of the clutch top of 3rd gear. Anyhow in the middle of the turn my pulley broke so no PS sending me off the track. If I wasn't on a big roadcourse when this happened my car would have been toast. Luckily it was turn 12 of PIR so lots of runoff. After searching around in the grass I found my serp belt and the outside of my pulley. It broke in the same way as the last one on my old 2.5litre jz. The outside just seperated. On the last car I was messing around doing a burnout and shifted to 4th then bam! No pulley!

Stock pulleys suck balls if you drive like a man.

I would do like aaron but honestly I treat my motor poorly and rev it excessively (8krpm plus). Anyone here got a fluidampr? Any input?
 

jdub

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Think it might have to do with using a 15 year old OEM damper?

No fluid damper I know of...The ATI is rated at 500 HP iirc.
 

figgie

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jdub;1096174 said:
Think it might have to do with using a 15 year old OEM damper?

No fluid damper I know of...The ATI is rated at 500 HP iirc.


and for clarification

that is 500 hp SUSTAINED. Meaning like going around the Daytona Super Speedway at 500 hp (8000+ rpm) like Nascar race cars do.

The dampers can go higher than that power wise but then it needs frequent inspections.
 

tsuper92

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jdub;1096174 said:
Think it might have to do with using a 15 year old OEM damper?

No fluid damper I know of...The ATI is rated at 500 HP iirc.

he's probably thinking jz engine,fluidamper make's one for them.summit had them when i got the ati.
 

jdub

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Do you have a link?
I searched Summit and could not find one for the JZ motors.
 

jdub

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Ahhh...didn't know that existed!
Looks like it just might be a nice alternative for the JZ guys ;)