Ceramic brake pads

[tekdeus]

I'm currently using a set of semi-metallic carbon fibre pads made by KVR, which I'm not all that happy with. During boost tuning, my pads/rotors got extremely hot and faded heavily, and left a cooked imprint of the pads on the rotors, even though I made sure to let off the brakes when I reached a stop.

The rotors now shudder badly during breaking, and this suprawiki article did a great job of explaining that it is caused by uneven pad materials on the rotors: http://wiki.supramania.com/tiki-read_article.php?articleId=7

The article says that using ceramic pads could remove the pad material/cementite from the rotors and cure the problem. I tried using garnet sand paper to sand off the pad imprints, but they are very deep, like a chemical reaction into the iron rotor. At this point, it seems likely I will have to machine the rotors again (just did it a month ago) if I want to keep using my KVR pads.

I'm reluctant to put the KVR pads back in, because I will have to be careful to never over heat the brakes again. I tried to search, but found almost no feedback on here from people using ceramic brake pads. I'm thinking of trying out EBC redstuff pads. Any suggestions? I've had lots of trouble with brake squeal, and would like to know how noisy ceramic pads are? Any other brands that are good?

Should I re-machine the rotors? Or just install ceramic pads and see if everything smooths out first? If I change from the KVR pads to ceramics later on, can I just swap pads, or must the rotors be machined?

A big brake kit is in the plans, but not in the budget right now.

 

[Poodles]

You didn't break em in hard enough if they left imprints...

Most high performance pads squeel as well, street pads are a compromise of materials to keep them quiet but still stop well.

YMMV

 

[hvyman]

measure the rotors for thickness to see weather or not you need to replace them first. my car came with ebc red stuff front brake pads and when they get low they make a LOT of noise. right now i have the trd ceramic carbon pads and they are good pads but expensive. if they get really hot they will make a lil noise coming to stops or when they really get low they will make some noise. but both are good pads

 

[supraguru05]

i run the pbr ultimate ceramics for nasa track days and pbr metal masters for autocross.

the ceramics take a while to get heat in them on the street and ive noticed bad behaviour of them at autocross when cold hence why i now switch pads before autocross. also these ceramics have alwaysed cracked on my at nasa but thats not really important for you.

i would recommend running the metal masters they are a great street pad and ive never had any problem with them over heating. just give your car like 30 seconds at highway speeds to cool everything back down

 

[tekdeus]

hvyman, when you say get low, do you mean when the pad is worn down?

The EBC Redstuff pad is a Kevlar fibre based brake compound enhanced with ceramic particles. Is this different or similar to most other ceramic pads?

 

[supraguru05]

hvyman, when you say get low, do you mean when the pad is worn down?

The EBC Redstuff pad is a Kevlar fibre based brake compound enhanced with ceramic particles. Is this different or similar to most other ceramic pads?

i dont have any personal experience with the redstuff pads since i go through a set every weekend they are to expensive for me to use. i have heard good things about red stuffs for the street it seems the yellow stuffs have more mixed reviews so i would say the red stuffs are also worth a try.

but if your not doing any racing just get a good quality pad like ebc bed them properly and give them a little cool time and you should be good to go

 

[NashMan]

proter field pads for me best pad ever and run a drilled rotor not one issue most of the gues around here run them at auto x


adn they don't dust bad eather

 

[becauseican]

No matter what pads you try the stock brakes just PLAIN SUCK!!, I had decent results with brembo rotors and the KVR pads (stock setup) but there just inst enough brakes for such a heavy car. Good pads and rotors will only get you one or two more stops before they will fade. Now for the pad imprint....that will happen with most pad/ rotors if you come to a stop right after heavy/ repeated braking, esspecially if they were fading. The best thing to do is keep moving for a minuite or two before comming to a full stop with cooking hot brakes. Pads can get red hot under heavy braking, just imagine the heat that will get transmitted to the rotor when stopped, thats what caused the warping.

FYI i have never had the nightpager setup (with Hawk pads) fade on me, eve when racing downhill a windy mountain road, and also after repeated 100-0 mph stops!!!

 

[hvyman]

ya they got nosiy as hell when there were worn down. they came on the car so idk if they were broken in properly or if thats just how they are.

 

[JMofIRW]

No matter what pads you try the stock brakes just PLAIN SUCK!!, I had decent results with brembo rotors and the KVR pads (stock setup) but there just inst enough brakes for such a heavy car...

The old brakes I have on my supra stop better than any Hyundai I have ever owned... I had an accent which is about 1500lbs with ceramics and brembo rotors, and my supra stops better! Just putting it out there. I find the brakes are very powerful with all wheel disc and all.

 

[teedoff00]

I am currently running Posi Quiet cermamic pads (order Hawk, but turns out they don't make them for the MKIII?), I like them a lot. They are silent, don't squeak at all and have really good bite. I bought a set of rotors (drilled and slotted) with the pads and I am very pleased. The posi quiets probably wouldn't hold up to autocross or a lot of heavy braking, but I have got on them quite a few times with little to no fade. The best part is they are cheap! But if you looking for a good track/street pad, I hear Porterfield RS4's are some of the best.

 

[metaphysico]

Im running carbon kevlar on one of my cars and they are great but they are loud as all hell when cold or warm. They like being very hot. Cant rember the brand. But the red stuffs the yellow stuffs and the green stuffs are a diffrent compounds made for diffrent uses. I know the greens stuffs are quiet but dont know about the braking under heat.
Also pedal fade can be due to other factors like brake fluid getting too hot, get some good dot4 and flush the hell out of your system and if you have abs you will need to flush that too not just run it through the master to wheels you have to activate the abs pump.
If you want good breaking get some braided lines, dot4 fluid (at least), and a master cyl brace. Check out the green stuff and red and yellow and compare spec sheets i cant rember what is what but some are for braking power and fade reduction and some are for noise. I have found that the better pads I get that do the best job are also the loudest.

 

[Guyana00]

The way you make it sound is as if you stopped and then let off the brakes. You need to let off before you completely stop. Did I not understand correctly?

 

[marc3]

tekdeus: seriously,ebc redstuff were fine for cruising around and braking hard once in awhile. when i went to a timeattack event at the track, at the end of the day, i had small chunks of pad material stuck inside of the wheel.

now , i have since then bought hawk hp+,top of the line supposely, and they work amazing!! braking was slightly improved,and they stood up to the timeattack abuse.
like randy, i have the nightpager kit.

 

[5uprahboy]

Ok what I don't understand - is it the size of the disk that isn't up to the job? or the calliper? I mean, if I'm able to stomp on the brakes, and get fade, its going to be from the fluid boiling, or the pads gassing out.

What's a bigger calliper going to do? Why would a "stronger" calliper help? Is it about being able to dissipate heat better or?

 

[7Mboost]

I saw the budget issue- but I thought I'd throw out Doward's BBK he's been working on since its built to be affordable.

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83234

 

[Poodles]

Ok what I don't understand - is it the size of the disk that isn't up to the job? or the calliper? I mean, if I'm able to stomp on the brakes, and get fade, its going to be from the fluid boiling, or the pads gassing out.

What's a bigger calliper going to do? Why would a "stronger" calliper help? Is it about being able to dissipate heat better or?

Heat moves from where it's hot ot where it's not as hot. Rotor doesn't have enough mass, it overheats causing the heat to get into the pad and caliper then into the brake fluid.

The sytem is just too small for the car in hard driving...

 

[Rennat]

i stand by my Porterfield R4S pads... carbon kevlar material.
i even talked to a certain vendor and they said that EBC doesnt make a comparable pad to the R4S... so yeah.

plus i've never had an issue with them, the harder you stop, the faster it stops. i've never had fade.... they squeal a little, but thats because i need to blow them out.

 

[Keros]

You should not want to change brake pad types without doing anything to the rotors (at worst sand paper, at best machining). This is because both mechanical friction and chemical bonding slow the car down... i.e. the force of the pads clamping on the rotor and the chemical bond formation and destruction of the pad material on the pad bonding with the pad material pasted across the rotor.

The imprinted pad outline on the rotor is a spot where too much pad material was deposited... usually due to lack of heat treatment during break in. Pads are brazed at the factory to stabilize the chemicals in them so the pad performs well enough to get you down the street, but after that it requires ALOT of heat for sustained periods in order to treat the pad material and prepare it for use. Once the pads are 'broken in' properly, you're not likely to get a pad imprint unless you try to melt the brakes and then come to a complete stop (which could chemically bond the rotor to the pad, SC mentioned that he had to use an air chisle on some dude's car to seperate them, IIRC).

Tekdeus, I would recommend you machine both front rotors and re-bed your pads. If you don't like your pads, that would be the time to switch. If you switch pads without machining (removing the old pad material), the pad will have to put a new layer overtop of the other pad's material (assumably a different type of pad material, semi-metal vs ceramic, ect), and this will reduce the efficiency of the system.

Chamfer the pads before you install them and follow proper break in proceedure.

Disclaimer: It's late, I hope this post isn't full of shit.

 

[tekdeus]

Once the pads are 'broken in' properly, you're not likely to get a pad imprint unless you try to melt the brakes and then come to a complete stop
Chamfer the pads before you install them and follow proper break in proceedure

I did the recommended bed-in procedure, of five 60-10mph stops. Fade was quick to show up so I waited a while between stops. It was after I really overheated the brakes during datalogging pulls that the pad imprint and vibration showed up. Where I was, I was forced to come to a stop, while the brakes were hot, and I made sure not to hold the pedal down once stopped. But the pads dont lift off the rotors and I assume melted to the disc. This might not have happened with a ceramic pad, who knows?

I did chamfer the pads and remachine the rotors, and am just taking it more easy on the brakes now, i.e. not doing more than one hard stop in row. I'll probably go with the Doward kit anyway though. The stock brakes are massively inadequate for these heavy tanks once the HP gets above 350.