Carbon Fiber Idea

[gurley0916]

Alright before I get started on this idea I assume that I will get remarks about this idea being "rice" but i think it would be a interesting project.

The idea that i have is to make carbon fiber intercooler pipes or piping.

My idea for the first piece is to go from the throttle body and eliminate the 3000 pipe and have it extend to where the pipes go into the fender. As such but without the couplers:

(hope Supra8795 doesn't mind me using the picture)

The problems that I see with this project are:

1. How to make the mold
2. The temperatures within the hood ruining the epoxy
3. Having the pipe be seamless so there is no chance of splitting under pressure

And here are what I have researched and came up with for solutions:

1. For making the mold I was just going to get a piece of metal mandrel bent to the shape that I desired.

2. Now this is tricky because normal epoxy's loose there structural strength usually over 250F degrees and start to discolor. Well I have found a relatively cheap epoxy that can handle and up to 400F degree temperatures and actually become stronger as it is heated because it cures the epoxy more.

Epoxy

3. Now this was the hardest part to over come that I could see. Most pipes or tubes that are made are made from a 2 part mold and then put together using an adhesive. Well I have a hard time with this idea because it just has accident written all over it, I mean this has to with stand a good amount of pressure and I dont want it to fail.

So as a result I have found a SITE that sells carbon fiber sleeves that are similar to this.



Now the site sells various diameter sleeves and different weights at a very reasonable price. Im looking at using the 2.5'' sleeve.

Procedure:

My idea is to get a pipe bent to the desired shape and length, Next you prepare the pipe by putting down a wax so that the epoxy will not stick to the pipe. After that is done you take 2-3 sleeves and put it around the pipe. After those are on there you apply the epoxy resin. Now heres the niffty part, the site that sells the sleeves also sells shrink wrap that is resin resistant. So when you have the carbon fiber wet with resin you then take the shrink wrap and place it over it. By heating it, it presses the excess resin out and applies a nice smooth finish similar vacuum bagging.

So what do you guys think? I want to hear your guy's thoughts about the idea and if you think there is anything that I am missing?

Thought it would be nice because it is carbon fiber and it has the properties to not conduct heat as well as metal.

 

[JesseH]

for the bends in the pipe if you can find foam piping in the right angles you need sleeve the CF over it, apply the resin, once its cured pour acetone into it to disolve the foam.

 

[tbcmorris]

idk...this has fail written all over it to me

 

[7M-KDL]

Alright before I get started on this idea I assume that I will get remarks about this idea being "rice" but i think it would be a interesting project.

The idea that i have is to make carbon fiber intercooler pipes or piping.

My idea for the first piece is to go from the throttle body and eliminate the 3000 pipe and have it extend to where the pipes go into the fender. As such but without the couplers:

(hope Supra8795 doesn't mind me using the picture)

The problems that I see with this project are:

1. How to make the mold
2. The temperatures within the hood ruining the epoxy
3. Having the pipe be seamless so there is no chance of splitting under pressure

And here are what I have researched and came up with for solutions:

1. For making the mold I was just going to get a piece of metal mandrel bent to the shape that I desired.

2. Now this is tricky because normal epoxy's loose there structural strength usually over 250F degrees and start to discolor. Well I have found a relatively cheap epoxy that can handle and up to 400F degree temperatures and actually become stronger as it is heated because it cures the epoxy more.

Epoxy

3. Now this was the hardest part to over come that I could see. Most pipes or tubes that are made are made from a 2 part mold and then put together using an adhesive. Well I have a hard time with this idea because it just has accident written all over it, I mean this has to with stand a good amount of pressure and I dont want it to fail.

So as a result I have found a SITE that sells carbon fiber sleeves that are similar to this.



Now the site sells various diameter sleeves and different weights at a very reasonable price. Im looking at using the 2.5'' sleeve.

Procedure:

My idea is to get a pipe bent to the desired shape and length, Next you prepare the pipe by putting down a wax so that the epoxy will not stick to the pipe. After that is done you take 2-3 sleeves and put it around the pipe. After those are on there you apply the epoxy resin. Now heres the niffty part, the site that sells the sleeves also sells shrink wrap that is resin resistant. So when you have the carbon fiber wet with resin you then take the shrink wrap and place it over it. By heating it, it presses the excess resin out and applies a nice smooth finish similar vacuum bagging.

So what do you guys think? I want to hear your guy's thoughts about the idea and if you think there is anything that I am missing?

Thought it would be nice because it is carbon fiber and it has the properties to not conduct heat as well as metal.

not to burst your bubble but how do you plan to get the sleeve off of the pipe you bent after it is hardened? even with wax or something as a barrier i dont see it working out too well especially if you shrink it. i dont see how it will work without cutting a slit in the sleeve, which defeats the purpose. maybe get a smaller diameter pipe bent then build it up to the diameter with newspaper or something that way when you want to remove the sleeve the paper will just tear and you will have the room to take it off. of course this gets rid of the possibility of a nice smooth finish.



now that was my negative thinking. now for an idea that maybe will be helpful or it may be dumb but here goes. get some pipe that has an inside diameter the size you want your outside diameter of your Ic pipes to be. ie: if you want 2.5 OD on IC pipes get a metal or pvc pipe with and ID of 2.5. i wouldnt worry about bending the pipe as that will cause complications. i would say about a 1 foot section of pipe should be enough. then i would get some of that self expanding foam(it called "right stuff" or "great stuff" or something). block off one end of the pipe then fill it with the foam. it would prolly make sense to put some sort of lubricant on the inside of the pipe(or suran wrap) so we can remove the foam from the pipe. now you will need to do this many times so you get multiple 1 piece sections of foam. then cut the foam at angles to make it "bend". kind of like custom made headers that are all pieced and welded together. you will need some sort or glue to hold the pieces together. then simply put the sleeve over your foam log and put the resin on and you can prolly even shrink it. after the carbon and resin have hardened...knock out all the foam and repeat as necessary to make your other pipes. i know it sounds like a lot but it seems to me that it will work..if i confused you let me know and ill try to clear up any points, i know its hard to nderstand without pics or anything...sorry for the entire essay here

 

[85celicasupra]

take a section of pipe that you want to replicate
fill it with some sort of expanding/hardening foam.
Cut the pipe off.

Maybe do a test and see if acetone or something will then melt the foam but not the Carbon fiber so you can melt out the foam after the CF hardens over it.

Making a bent/curved tube out of carbon fiber could prove to be a little difficult.

 

[85celicasupra]

These pictures are taken from Effet's build thread...This is how he made them.

Smeared some polyester on the mould and had to cut it in half. Then I filled the new mould with stearin.

Note: This was just a prototype with one layer of carbon fiber. I used 4 layers on the others.

 

[Enraged]

i think its a good plan. the sleeve is a great alternative to using carbon fiber tape, and if the epoxy performs as promised, why not? just be sure to pressure test the pipes first (a regular car tire pump will provide enough pressure) to ensure it doesn't crack the first time you boost. please post progress shots if you end up doing this.

 

[fixitman04]

we use wax to prototype our parts at the aircraft factory. form the pipes out of wax (candle wax) , them lay them up , precure them at room temp, then bake them to remove the wax.

 

[gurley0916]

Good idea guys, i did not think about getting the metal pipe out, kind of over looked that part. I do like the foam ideas though. I know at the craft store they have foam circle tubes that are used to make for wreaths so i might use one of those for the bend or something various. I do also like the idea of the foam in the pipe then wrapping the carbon after it out of the pipe. i am seriously interested in doing this just got to wait on my next pay check.

 

[Keros]

Make a prototype with the foam idea...

If it works slick, you could make a plaster cast of the components and use the cast to mold foam cores for producing copies.

 

[Enraged]

or mold wax cores, and then you can keep reusing the wax after each pipe is made.

 

[mkIIIman089]

Only roadblock I can see possibly happening, won't show up until a little while down the road. With repeated expanding/contracting from the pressure the pipes will eventually fatigue and crack.

How quickly if ever obviously would depend on boost pressure, how often you run it hard, heat, etc.

 

[7M-KDL]

Only roadblock I can see possibly happening, won't show up until a little while down the road. With repeated expanding/contracting from the pressure the pipes will eventually fatigue and crack.

How quickly if ever obviously would depend on boost pressure, how often you run it hard, heat, etc.

this could happen i suppose. im not by any means an expert on carbon fiber but many people underestimate its capabilities. it has been used for aircraft for many years and is very strong and durable. if you use a few layers(depending how thick those sleeves are) it should easily with stand both the heat and flex from boost. it does have weaknesses though. you run a high risk of exploding the carbon fiber if you use it to make the lower IC pipes. the reason for this is that if a rock hits the pipe it will cause a weak spot or shatter all together. from what i understand this is why carbon driveshafts are problematic and should only be used on a track with little or no debris. while it is tough material, a rock at 60mph is going to do some damage..if i am misinformed feel free to correct me.

edit:heat should be no problem at all because carbon fiber actually efficiently reflects heat. it is even used in high temperature, applications...formula one brake disks and pads

 

[adampecush]

Only roadblock I can see possibly happening, won't show up until a little while down the road. With repeated expanding/contracting from the pressure the pipes will eventually fatigue and crack.

If the pipes are strong enough, they aren't going to expand under pressure.

 

[gurley0916]

Ok so I think I'm going to go with the expanding foam idea for the bend because i checked and it dissolves with acetone. I'm not going to do the wax because i have to heat the heat shrink and that will melt it. Plus I've heard that some epoxies get hot when curing so I dont want that to be an issue either. I am going to make a mold for the bend and then spray the foam inside, that way i can replicate it if needed. Well off to work I go.

 

[OneJArpus]

gl hope everything works out for ya!

 

[mkIIIman089]

this could happen i suppose. im not by any means an expert on carbon fiber but many people underestimate its capabilities. it has been used for aircraft for many years and is very strong and durable. if you use a few layers(depending how thick those sleeves are) it should easily with stand both the heat and flex from boost. it does have weaknesses though. you run a high risk of exploding the carbon fiber if you use it to make the lower IC pipes. the reason for this is that if a rock hits the pipe it will cause a weak spot or shatter all together. from what i understand this is why carbon driveshafts are problematic and should only be used on a track with little or no debris. while it is tough material, a rock at 60mph is going to do some damage..if i am misinformed feel free to correct me.

edit:heat should be no problem at all because carbon fiber actually efficiently reflects heat. it is even used in high temperature, applications...formula one brake disks and pads

I've seen a few carbon drive shafts fail, and the problem spot was never a failure of the carbon but the bond that attached the carbon to the metal ends failed, so they basically just fell apart at the seams. The thought was that the carbon would flex on the much more rigid Aluminum ends and break the bond.

The pipes I'm familiar with that failed were subject to heavy pressure shock from anti-lag systems, high heat, and never ending abuse. So, like I said, you could or could not have a problem. The pipes definitely can and will flex unless you make them so heavy duty you nearly negate the weight saved - at which point you could have just used Aluminum.

Carbon brakes definitely do a better job of dissipating heat over steel, but the manufacturing process, I think, has a lot to do with their ability to stay together at 700*C+. If they were just glued together like this type of part is, I'm pretty sure they would fail in a heartbeat. I'm not exactly an expert on carbon brakes so this (like everything read online) should be taken with a grain of salt... but I can always ask one.

All that said, I still think it's an interesting project, and you should definitely go through with it to test what happens!

 

[Velocityfreak]

why dont you guys use those long party balloons the kind that clowns make animals out of. I was thinking of this project the other day. you can easily blow the baloons up, and they are 3-4 feet long each. and its easy to bend, once the resin is cured pop the ballon and cut the ends square, that will leave the best looking piece, and you can do a really smooth radius bend rather than sharp 30 degree or 45 degree bends. and then finally do another wrap over it carbon tube 2 layers thick, with wax paper, or sulophane for a clean finish - it will look great as long as there is no air bubbles, for this a simple razor blade takes care of the bubbles.

total time invested 3 hours, rather than making all these molds - over a days worth of work. Screw molds when it comes to making complex carbon pipes. Balloons FTW.

Ive been messing around with those tubes for a while, they are great for venturi's

 

[gurley0916]

Ok well I did a plaster of paris mold of the elbow because the outer diameter is 2.5'' and its the right angle.

Heres the step by step pictures

Just waiting for the foam to cure and hopefully the oil that i sprayed on the molds will keep the foam from sticking

 

[gaboonviper85]

I'd have tried parafin wax or petrolium jelly instead of oil.