ARP Studs...

[7mgte1988]

I have a qestion for any one who has installed these studs on there car themselves cuz these should not be that hard to install but they are...

And yes the motor is in the car so i can only put 4 studs in cylinder 1 and 2 cuz of the fire wall..So the head is on the car and for some reason i can only put studs in random places ive tried to star them in so i can know it was lined up correctly...And the studs have a hard time getting through the head has any ever faced this:1zhelp:

 

[hvyman]

its prolly cuz your threads are dirty and you cant chase the threads with the head iirc. one side should have a allen key in the middle to ratchet them down but you dont want to torque them in only hand tight.

i tried it with the head on during a bhg and gave up since it was only a n/a.

 

[7mgte1988]

its prolly cuz your threads are dirty and you cant chase the threads with the head iirc. one side should have a allen key in the middle to ratchet them down but you dont want to torque them in only hand tight.

i tried it with the head on during a bhg and gave up since it was only a n/a.

Yea i noticed the hex but it seems like there having a hard time getting through the head do u need any assembly lube for that too??

 

[hvyman]

usually they come with moly lube but your threads might be dirty in which case the studs wont get to the bottom of the block like they should.

 

[Poodles]

The threads MUST be cleaned or they won't go in all the way.

 

[PureDrifter]

The threads MUST be cleaned or they won't go in all the way.

so correct order for stud install is:

head off block, chase/old tap through threads, using air blow out crap in holes, put headgasket/head back on block, insert studs through head, tighten to hand tight with allen wrench, torque washers/nuts in factory order (3-4 steps up to 90ft/lbs).

i've heard both ways, studs before head and studs after the head has been placed on the block. looking at it, i doubt you can get the head on the block with the motor still in the car and the studs in, you have to put the studs in after the head is sitting on the block right?

 

[7mgte1988]

so correct order for stud install is:

head off block, chase/old tap through threads, using air blow out crap in holes, put headgasket/head back on block, insert studs through head, tighten to hand tight with allen wrench, torque washers/nuts in factory order (3-4 steps up to 90ft/lbs).

i've heard both ways, studs before head and studs after the head has been placed on the block. looking at it, i doubt you can get the head on the block with the motor still in the car and the studs in, you have to put the studs in after the head is sitting on the block right?

Ive blew them out but i did not use a thread chaser because at some time i had all the studs in the block and they went in at ease but with the head on there it seems like the threads on the studs are a little wider than the holes....

 

[jdub]

so correct order for stud install is:

head off block, chase/old tap through threads, using air blow out crap in holes, put headgasket/head back on block, insert studs through head, tighten to hand tight with allen wrench, torque washers/nuts in factory order (3-4 steps up to 90ft/lbs).

i've heard both ways, studs before head and studs after the head has been placed on the block. looking at it, i doubt you can get the head on the block with the motor still in the car and the studs in, you have to put the studs in after the head is sitting on the block right?

Where did you get that torq spec for ARP studs? It's wrong...don't post "I heard specs" again.

 

[PureDrifter]

Where did you get that torq spec for ARP studs? It's wrong...don't post "I heard specs" again.

i don't do "i heard specs"
it's not wrong, unless ARP misprinted AND misinformed me when i called in to confirm.

[thumb]http://i27.tinypic.com/34imnn9.jpg[/thumb]

 

[jdub]

here's what I based it on:

Your sheet shows a higher psi tensile strength (explains the higher torque) and no provision to use motor oil as lube. The version I posted was the last revision (2nd rev actually) I am aware of...when did you get yours? If it's recent, my apologies...most the time guys pull bolt/stud specs out of their arse. You obviously did not.

Keep something in mind though: The older (lower tensile strength) studs are still floating around...90 ft/lbs is an over torque for that version.
The bottom line is use the torque spec on the sheet that comes with the studs/bolts.

 

[SupraStardom]

I use ARP Studs and i put the studs in the block then the gasket, then the head. the thing with the head is make sure you put the washers in the head over the holes before putting the head on. otherwise your going to have problems seating some of the nuts.

you may need a small screwdriver to direct the washers to go over the studs so they don't flip up and get caught in the sides. Its a lot easier if you have someone help you. one person holds the head the other goes around moves the washers. That's the good thing about having a 9 year old son.

 

[7mgte1988]

Iam gonna start over wit this mess cuz i think the gasket may be sliding and preventing the studs from engaging the block...I think i made a mess cuz i know the MHG has a couple of copper coats and its gonna be stinking to the haed...

 

[iwannadie]

My block had small alignment pins, they held the gasket in place and then I put the head on. The alignment pins held the head in place as well, put the washers in first then the studs, no problems at all. Unless maybe you're hitting the cams or something and need to rotate the cams to fit the studs in.

 

[isnms]

Wow, the versions of ARP stud instruction sheets are varied. I saved this one, I thought from jdub, that states 81 ft/lb.

Guess the best advice is use the one that comes with your studs, but buying second hand could be WAG.

 

[7mgte1988]

My block had small alignment pins, they held the gasket in place and then I put the head on. The alignment pins held the head in place as well, put the washers in first then the studs, no problems at all. Unless maybe you're hitting the cams or something and need to rotate the cams to fit the studs in.

Yea the gasket is in the pins the and washer are in place but its like the some of the studs will not go lower than the head even when i hand turqe them into the head they only go so far...

 

[turbotoy]

I couldn't find the sheet that came with my ARP studs in the 2001 time frame, but I remember for sure that the spec was 90 ft-lbf with moly lube.

That said, I've been involved in some testing of fastener preload as a function of applied torque at work. As we found and is backed up by the Bickford textbook on design of bolted joints, fastener preload is generally assumed to be +/- 30% when using torque methods. If you need more accurate means to determine preload, you must measure fastener elongation (best) or use the torque plus angle method prescribed by some manufacturers.

Based on that, the real points that apply to this thread are:

1. If you do the calcs, no matter what you are going to be significantly below the yield strength of the fastener with any torque within reason. The safety factors to yield are greater than two. I'll be happy to share those calculations if anyone is interested. The net result is whether you torque to 80 ft-lbf or 90 ft-lbf, the fastener will have sufficient strength.

2. Obviously torquing all fasteners to the same torque value is necessary to minimize fastener to fastener preload variations, however the reality is significant variations will exist no matter what.

This neglects:

- Analysis to determine the joint stiffness of the head, head gasket, block and stud washer under engine operating temperature (with significant temperature gradients...). This would allow determination if yielding of the head surface under the washer would be expected. I have not witnessed this on my engine, which has been torqued to 90 ft-lbf.

- Cylinder bore deformation induced by excessive faster preload.

 

[7mgte1988]

ThX for all the input i just had to put in the orginal head bolts and wigle it around then put the ARP stud in then play wit a little then it drops in:icon_surp

 

[jdub]

Wow, the versions of ARP stud instruction sheets are varied. I saved this one, I thought from jdub, that states 81 ft/lb.

Guess the best advice is use the one that comes with your studs, but buying second hand could be WAG.

Yep...the one I posted was Rev 2...the sheet PureDrifter posted is news to me.

I couldn't find the sheet that came with my ARP studs in the 2001 time frame, but I remember for sure that the spec was 90 ft-lbf with moly lube.

That said, I've been involved in some testing of fastener preload as a function of applied torque at work. As we found and is backed up by the Bickford textbook on design of bolted joints, fastener preload is generally assumed to be +/- 30% when using torque methods. If you need more accurate means to determine preload, you must measure fastener elongation (best) or use the torque plus angle method prescribed by some manufacturers.

Based on that, the real points that apply to this thread are:

1. If you do the calcs, no matter what you are going to be significantly below the yield strength of the fastener with any torque within reason. The safety factors to yield are greater than two. I'll be happy to share those calculations if anyone is interested. The net result is whether you torque to 80 ft-lbf or 90 ft-lbf, the fastener will have sufficient strength.

2. Obviously torquing all fasteners to the same torque value is necessary to minimize fastener to fastener preload variations, however the reality is significant variations will exist no matter.

This neglects:

- Analysis to determine the joint stiffness of the head, head gasket, block and stud washer under engine operating temperature (with significant temperature gradients...). This would allow determination if yielding of the head surface under the washer would be expected. I have not witnessed this on my engine, which has been torqued to 90 ft-lbf.

- Cylinder bore deformation induced by excessive faster preload.

I agree...ARP designs their fasteners to 75% of yield strength. While a 5 or even 10 ft/lb over torque is likely not an issue, it's the "more is better" mentality that can cause a cumulative effect over time as torque values get passed around the forums. I've read where guys have torqued studs to 110 ft/lbs using moly...that's not good.

Thermal consideration is mentioned on ARP's website, specifically the difference in thermal expansion of an aluminum head on a steel block. Torque on ARP bolts is limited to 75 ft/lbs (moly) for this exact reason.

ARP also has a preload procedure where you go through 5 complete tightening/loosening cycles to reduce friction to the min possible. Give you the best final torque reading.

 

[--Wolf--]

jdub, my ARP Studs arrived 2 weeks ago and they came with the first sheet posted with the 90 ft/lbs. I'm assuming that is the newest.

 

[PureDrifter]

here's what I based it on:

Your sheet shows a higher psi tensile strength (explains the higher torque) and no provision to use motor oil as lube. The version I posted was the last revision (2nd rev actually) I am aware of...when did you get yours? If it's recent, my apologies...most the time guys pull bolt/stud specs out of their arse. You obviously did not.

Keep something in mind though: The older (lower tensile strength) studs are still floating around...90 ft/lbs is an over torque for that version.
The bottom line is use the torque spec on the sheet that comes with the studs/bolts.

i bought mine from 935 like 2ish weeks ago, so i'm planning on just using whatever's on the sheet.

i know how it goes with n00bs pulling info and "facts" out of dubious or no sources. i'm new to SM but i've been on CL, SF, TN, and a few other forums for a good long time and know how it goes with questioning for sources. its cool.

mind confirming for me please that you install the studs with the head ON the car, or is it with the head off, studs on, then put the head on over.
motor is in the car still. thanks.