afm delete
- Thread starter allen600
- Start date
There are a couple of ways.
HKS VPC (Vein Pressure Converter) : one of the earliest 'AFM delete' mods
MAFT-Pro : newer piggyback tuning device capable of using a GM MAP sensor in place of the AFM
Standalone (MegaSquirt, AEM...) : Fully tunable you can use whatever sensors the system is capable of.
HKS VPC (Vein Pressure Converter) : one of the earliest 'AFM delete' mods
MAFT-Pro : newer piggyback tuning device capable of using a GM MAP sensor in place of the AFM
Standalone (MegaSquirt, AEM...) : Fully tunable you can use whatever sensors the system is capable of.
allen600;1641585 said:
Depends on your overall goals and how much you have to spend...
Personally I went with Maft-Pro, I like it, it is only most useful though if you use something like TunerPro RT Software so that you can do logging, live monitor, updates on the fly, Tune using a VE Table that gives you like 255 cells to control fuel output and more. You can also do Timing monitoring and timing control with it... There are other options in which I am not using... WideBand AFR monitoring, boost control, TPS enhancement... There is more, but I think you get the idea... I think it is the closest piggyback before going to standalone...
I have the original MAFT, and though it does not have half of the features of the MAFT pro, it is super easy to set up, gets rid of the AFM, and I've never, EVER had an issue with it or the GM MAF. I'm about to retire my Supra to the garage for a full restoration, and at that time, I will be switching to a DIY-PNP, just for more features.
MKIIINA;1641972 said:
Was just going to say the opposite about the MAFT-PRO. I don't have any experience with it personally, but I heard that it is a real pain to get dialed in properly, requiring lots of dyno time. Anyone who knows better, please chime in. I'm always open to being taught something new. Looking for a VPC/GCC combo myself.
boostcraver;1642185 said:
The Maft-Pro has been nothing but great for me... It was more complicated then the Apexi Neo, but that is like comparing Windows Paint application to Adobe PhotoShop... perhaps takes more time to learn how to use the PhotoShop, but the capabilities of one to the other is no comparison. I can't really compare to anything else, I know it has numerous areas of adjustments, but to me that means more flexibility and more accurate control in more driving configurations... I did plenty of street tuning before putting on dyno... Just my $0.02
boostcraver;1642185 said:
In my opinion, the biggest reason the Maft Pro gets bad reports is because of the users that don't want to learn. They want something to install, then press the 'Auto Setup' button, and drive in to the sunset with fully tuned car.
I first ran the Maft Pro in AFC Mode and it worked great. It took about a half hour to install and about the same to tune it. Not one bad experience with it. Then I switched to Speed Density and a whole new world opened up. Already having some experience with it in AFC mode made the transition to SD a little easier.
Like said above, the Maft is the closest thing to a standalone that you're going to get. With that comes a bit of learning that has to be done. In the end, your car runs great and you're a more knowledgeable Supra owner.
^^^^ Thanks Kenny... Hoping you would see this and chime in with your support and your positive experiences utilizing the Maft-Pro system. IMO, it does not deserve any negative reputation, you just need to understand the investment of time to learn, as you stated...
But that's with any setup I would think? Is the MAFT-Pro completely undrivable (ie you can't install at home and make it to a dyno using a highway?) That would be possible with a VPC setup (in fact I took my car to the dyno to tune and things were very close across the board) but could be tuned for more power obviously...
MKIIINA;1642859 said:
Exactly!
When I ran the Maft in AFC mode it was an "Install and Drive" type of deal because you're not controlling much in that mode. Only AFR's basically. It took me about 10 minutes to get my desired AFR's dialed in.
Speed Density mode is more complex and naturally takes longer to dial in. Again, it's an "Install and Drive" thing. Well, sort of...haha...you'll have to get your Idle AFR's adjusted first. Then drive!
In both modes, great care must be taken before driving at WOT. WOT is where stuff breaks! Stay out of WOT until you've tuned (for RICH condition) or are ready to head to the dyno and you'll be fine.
DISCLAIMER: I leave all Close Loop operation to the stock ECU. If one plans to utilize the Maft to control as much as possible, then setup time greatly varies.
As with any piggyback, or standalone for that matter, it's just foolish to install it and then take the car out and Flog it. Take it slow...
gottadiesel;1642238 said:
Great to hear something positive about it. I know it's reputed to be a very flexible tuning tool and have looked at it more than once, but have been hesitant to buy it. Was afraid to peel all that money only to find that I couldn't use it because I needed to be strapped to a dyno everytime i wanted to make an adjustment. What do you mean street tuning, does it come with base maps loaded like a standalone or how does it work?
CajunKenny;1642894 said:Exactly!
When I ran the Maft in AFC mode it was an "Install and Drive" type of deal because you're not controlling much in that mode. Only AFR's basically. It took me about 10 minutes to get my desired AFR's dialed in.
Speed Density mode is more complex and naturally takes longer to dial in. Again, it's an "Install and Drive" thing. Well, sort of...haha...you'll have to get your Idle AFR's adjusted first. Then drive!
In both modes, great care must be taken before driving at WOT. WOT is where stuff breaks! Stay out of WOT until you've tuned (for RICH condition) or are ready to head to the dyno and you'll be fine.
DISCLAIMER: I leave all Close Loop operation to the stock ECU. If one plans to utilize the Maft to control as much as possible, then setup time greatly varies.
As with any piggyback, or standalone for that matter, it's just foolish to install it and then take the car out and Flog it. Take it slow...
Great info Kenny. Thanks for posting this.
boostcraver;1642956 said:
gottadiesel is more than capable of answering this; but, I'll jump in and save him some work since I'm already here.
The way any AFC should be initially setup is to be Rich when at WOT. Then work your way lean. ALWAYS start RICH!!!
The Maft has a setting called 'Mainscale'. This adjusts the tune as a whole. A Mainscale of 0 means no adjustment, a positive number is adding fuel, and a negative number is taking fuel away. Pretty easy! So, a safe place to have the Mainscale for your first WOT run (VERY stressful by the way
) would be +5. This will vary depending on injector size of course. +5 is waay rich even for stock injectors; but, it's better to be Rich and Retarded then Lean and Broke! boostcraver;1642962 said:
Glad I could help.
boostcraver;1642956 said:
Yeah you for sure don't need to get on a dyno, it is helpful information to be on a dyno to insure you are not surpassing your engines max torque curve, but I drove my car for 3k miles before getting on a dyno.
www.fullthrottletech.com is a location where you gain understanding and knowledge of the maft-pro system, but there are threads on here that also go through the basic setup... Basically on initial startup, I was running TunerPro RT software, so I could watch all of the Engine information that is routed through, monitored by or controlled by the Maft-pro so that I could see if anything was off. I was also fortunate to have gotten to know CajunKenny a little and since he had already been running the MaftPro in Speed Density Mode, he was very helpful in heading me in the right direction on this whole deal.
So I did an idle tune first to satisfy Vf signal, which I routed to Aux Input 1, so that I can monitor and log it. I have heard good and bad about trying to satisfy Vf, my tune now, what I did is a cruise log and looked at the average voltage for Vf, during a 10 minute log of normal driving (shifting up and down, speeding up and down) but staying in close loop, my average was 2.44 volts, so to me that is very close to the ECU being happy with the amount of fuel being delivered for close loop operation (this by altering the Main Scale option in the Maft-Pro. As CajunKenny stated, outside of that, I have done no tuning for close loop operation.
Then I began by doing a WOT 3rd gear pull (WG pressure only) and logging with my laptop, while keeping an eye on the AFR. Personally I have tuned to that 10.8 to 11.2 range. If I saw it creep past 11.5 I would let off and make a change in the VE table (which is a cross section of rpm and Kpa/manifold pressure) After you make your run, look through the log to check to see where you need to add or take away fuel... Once good on WG pressure I began to increase boost, by a couple psi at first then by .5psi as I got closer to where I was comfortable without going on a dyno (which was about 14-15psi) Once you have the WOT tuned, then you can make changes for more of a fine tune, like Boost enrichment, TSP enrichment and decay, monitoring timing to make sure it is stable and on and on... This goes much faster if you have a 2nd person that can run a pc and know enough about cars to make changes as you direct them...
In a nut shell that is the basics of how I did my street tuning, in fact my tune right now is a street tune, as when I was on a dyno, I started running out of fuel above 14psi of boost, once I did a fuel pump mod, I no longer have that issue. I made a simple temp jumper on the dyno so that I could continue...
Anyway, if you decide to go that route I would be glad to assist any way I can... Also to answer one of your other questions, you can get map files from someone else, keeping in mind that you want to make sure your firmware is the same and that you engine setups are close to the same, including fuel pressure and be very cautious on your 1st run with it...
Good luck and keep in mind that any technology that you decide to go with in order to get rid of the AFM is 100% better than trying to fight it if you ever have a problem with it...
---------- Post added at 08:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 PM ----------
CajunKenny;1642974 said:gottadiesel is more than capable of answering this; but, I'll jump in and save him some work since I'm already here.
The way any AFC should be initially setup is to be Rich when at WOT. Then work your way lean. ALWAYS start RICH!!!
The Maft has a setting called 'Mainscale'. This adjusts the tune as a whole. A Mainscale of 0 means no adjustment, a positive number is adding fuel, and a negative number is taking fuel away. Pretty easy! So, a safe place to have the Mainscale for your first WOT run (VERY stressful by the way
Glad I could help.
oops walked away after starting a reply... I see CK got to it before I finally got mine posted... but as you will read, he made a good point that I don't think I made real clear... start pig rich and work your way to being leaned out to a safe range.