AEM and COP?

[Adjuster]

Well, no more plug wires with COP. and because of that, all the coil energy is routed directly to the spark plug every time over the life of the plug and coil assembly.

Some of these COP's are nice and small too, so fitting them into the 7M is not too hard either. (So it free's up space where the coil packs used to sit, and cleans up the engine at the same time.)

Have you guys seen the size of the ones used on the VW narrow angle 6? They are totally tiny.

The red Audi ones used on the S4 V8 would look great too on the 7M I have.

Ok, so here is the million dollar question... When did sequential ignition become so much better than waste fire? (I think there is no significant advantage unless your going to change your timing for each and every cyc. based on knock readings or something.... Again, with just two knock sensors, this would be pretty much pointless..)

 

[figgie]

Well, no more plug wires with COP. and because of that, all the coil energy is routed directly to the spark plug every time over the life of the plug and coil assembly.

Some of these COP's are nice and small too, so fitting them into the 7M is not too hard either. (So it free's up space where the coil packs used to sit, and cleans up the engine at the same time.)

Have you guys seen the size of the ones used on the VW narrow angle 6? They are totally tiny.

The red Audi ones used on the S4 V8 would look great too on the 7M I have.

Ok, so here is the million dollar question... When did sequential ignition become so much better than waste fire? (I think there is no significant advantage unless your going to change your timing for each and every cyc. based on knock readings or something.... Again, with just two knock sensors, this would be pretty much pointless..)

Look great but how would they work at 20 psi I myself like the Coil near plugs from Denso and MSD

 

[Adjuster]

At 20psi the stock coils work fine with a plug gap of .28 LOL

No misfire that I can hear or see on the dyno graphs. So even stock wastefire with long plug wires etc. work fine.

If there was misfire, I'd just close up the gap to .25 or where ever it would stop misfireing. (I've pulled 25 a few times with no problems on toulene laced fuel on stock coils/wires at this plug gap.)

Sure I agree there are new coils out there with better specs, and performance, and you could run wider gaps that might net you a gain, but untill I see a serious lack of ability with the stock coils and setup, I'm not changing over at this time.

(Reasons for going COP? New standalone, and I'm making a custom harness anyway, so might as well build it with all new parts... And I would need to rev over 8k, but since my stroker motor is very happy at stock rpm limits, and I don't really want to go with a full stand alone, I doubt very much I'd change over unless a problem develops with the stock coils and wires.)

 

[figgie]

stock coils are very very capable.

The Only reason I am doing CNP is standalone here hehe

 

[87_7MGTE]

bringing this back, has anyone with a 1130 ECU wired up a 2jzgte igniter to achieve COP? if so can you give me a wire diagram or some steps to complete this, or point me to a link where it explains this? After reading through this thread a few more times, I still dont quite understand. I have 2j coils and a 2jzgte igniter.

Thank you.

 

[87_7MGTE]

anyone?

 

[figgie]

unless the ignition scheme of the 1130 can be changed from multiplexed to 6 channel i doubt it. If i recall the 2jz ignitor require 6 individual inputs. The 1130 does not have that capability (one of the draw back of PnP

 

[flubyux2]

the AEM is set up for wasted fire ignition. it converts the 2jz to wasted fire. its unlikely that AEM would change the MK3 box to reverse our stock setup from wasted to sequential fire. i would like to convert to sequential ignition because the coil only fires on one event during each combustion cycle. that means we'd get more dwell time to charge the primary and secondary windings before the primary winding charge collapses and triggers the secondary current discharge.

for some reason, i think AEM set up the boxes for wasted spark because its easier for them to write the progam to fire 3 coils twice as often rather than 6 coils at 6 different events in 2 revolutions. i wouldnt mind talking to an AEM engineer to get their thoughts on converting the 2jz to wasted spark over the stock sequential setup... aside from ease of programming.

 

[IJ.]

The earlier Wolf is only 4 channel ignition whereas they have a dedicated 6 channel unit the 4+.

It takes a change in hardware to run sequential IGN so maybe one day there will be an AEM+.

 

[figgie]

the AEM is set up for wasted fire ignition. it converts the 2jz to wasted fire. its unlikely that AEM would change the MK3 box to reverse our stock setup from wasted to sequential fire. i would like to convert to sequential ignition because the coil only fires on one event during each combustion cycle. that means we'd get more dwell time to charge the primary and secondary windings before the primary winding charge collapses and triggers the secondary current discharge.

for some reason, i think AEM set up the boxes for wasted spark because its easier for them to write the progam to fire 3 coils twice as often rather than 6 coils at 6 different events in 2 revolutions. i wouldnt mind talking to an AEM engineer to get their thoughts on converting the 2jz to wasted spark over the stock sequential setup... aside from ease of programming.

i would say if you are spinning the motor to 12000 rpm that might be a valid concern but under the normal life of a 7m even up to 9000 rpm it is still more than adequate.

also it is not that simple though in a 7m it should be.

need two signals (applies equally to ignition as well as injection),
the sync signal which is usually attached to the crank and the refrence signal which is attached to cam. The sync signal happen two times every cycle (2 revs is one cycle in the 4 stroke engine). The ref signal happens once every cycle and is used to tell when cylinder 1 will be at tdc.

The problem with the 7m ignition system is that the 24 tooth wheel under the cps does not have a missing tooth/added tooth so no way to tell what point in time it is at. It does have the tdc for #1 and #6 though. What it would require would be to make the 24 tooth wheel a 22 wheel. Not sure how adjustable the AEM is to reading that though.

 

[87_7MGTE]

So the 2J igniter is probably out of the question. Thats what I wanted to know. Would the best way to go with COP and AEM just be with the 2 7M igniters (http://www.driftmotion.com/driftmotionignition.bmp)? I know COP isnt really necessary, but I want that clean look and I already have the coils laying here on my floor, so i may as well use them.

Thanks for the input guys.

 

[figgie]

ok wait wait

going COP does not mean you MUST do sequential igntion. You could probably do COP in waste fire mode without issues. The trick is finding the proper mH on the coils. Like a Bosch coil or Mazda coils. Plenty of options.

 

[87_7MGTE]

i understand that but i want to work with what i already have. i understand the 2j coils arent the best by far, but ive already got them so i may as well use them. i wouldnt mind using the 2j coils in wastefire at all.

 

[figgie]

well that is the only way to make it work will be in waste fire mode unless the EMS can handle sequential igntion.

Bigarron did the method you linked but it is still waste fire.

 

[87_7MGTE]

is there a better, cleaner method than the 2 igniter method?

 

[figgie]

yes

standalone ecu that has at least 6 ignitors OR standalone CDI that has, 6 outouts..otherwise nope!

 

[87_7MGTE]

crap thats what i thought. why did AEM have to be so dumb and have only 5 ign out? AEM CDI seems to be unstable. Guess ill go with 2 stock igniters w/ wastefire.

Thanks figgie, youve been great help!

 

[figgie]

crap thats what i thought. why did AEM have to be so dumb and have only 5 ign out? AEM CDI seems to be unstable. Guess ill go with 2 stock igniters w/ wastefire.

Thanks figgie, youve been great help!

well the reason is that the stock 7m doesn;t need it. Now I find it odd as hell as to why they would go to a waste fire setup from a sequential on the 2jz but hey. people love the PnP

 

[flubyux2]

i was also going to go to COP w/ jz coils on my 7M using stock ignitor and ecu. its really easy. the 4 wire connector for the stock coil pacs just needs to be separated. split the ground wire for each ground of the 6 new packs. then split the other 3 coil pack trigger wires into 2 each. then feed each stock trigger wire to run 2 coil pacs, like the 1 and 6, 2 and 5, and 3 and 4.

the problem with running sequential coil packs in a waste fire system is exactly as i have mentioned; not enough dwell time to charge the secondary windings before the primary winding field collapses. this makes for a weaker spark because its firing twice as often and has half the charge that it needs to make a proper spark.

the ideas you guys are coming up with, using sequential COP/pacs on a wastefire system is exactly the way the AEM transforms the 2jzgte system. the AEM 1130 turns the GTE ignition system from sequential to waste fire. when using the stock coil packs, there is significant spark blow out due to weak voltage/current. this is of cousre due to the reason i explained in the paragraph above. the ONLY work-around people have come up with is to install an ignition amplifire which runs the coil voltage from 12v up to 16v or 24v. the other thing that helps is to switch to Denso Iridiums, IK24's for the 2jz's...

the single/fuel/exhaust/wb02/ems project i did on my friends car utlized this. its got the AEM 1130, installed the HKS DLI and will end up running IK24's rather than changing NGK's every 3000 miles and dealing w/ highboost misfires. this is the ONLY way to get the AEM ignition system to work correctly when on a MKIV w/ stock coils and ignitor.

knowing this, i think you guys can use JZ coil packs on your wastefire 7M's IF, and ONLY IF, you install an ignition amplifier and switch to IK24's if you havent already.

 

[figgie]

yikes lots of IF for a system that is supposed to be standalone. I knew there was a reason I disliked AEM.hehe