A new concept - weigh in political thread regulars!

Shytheed Dumas

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So I've had this crazy idea of the perfect government for a while, shared it with a few people for fun, had some interesting comments, and wanted to see what some of our politically outspoken members had to say about it. (ahem, Supracentral, Nick M, Weezle, Joel W, and a few others...)

The concept is based on a couple of basic principles, and while you may not agree 100% in granting me these points, please humor me for a few minutes in order to understand where I'm coming from. These principles are as follows:

1. Organizations that exist for the sole purpose for which they were originally designed tend to out perform those that end up performing functions in which they have little real interest.
2. Privately run businesses and organizations tend to be more successful than government run organizations that exist for the same reason. A major reason for this is found in principle #1, and can explain why communism never worked.
3. Regardless of your opinion of 'corporate greed', capitalism produces the most efficiently run and productive businesses in the world, and no socialist/communist type equivalent business could ever seriously compete, all things being equal.
4. Government revenue and a country's economy are maximized at TOTAL tax rates of somewhere between 15 and 25% and no more. That includes income, sales, capital gains, property, and every other tax we have. You can look these figures up if you wish.

That's it for the basics. So with those assumptions in place, lets continue with the following assumptions:

4. A government really only exists for a few key reasons: To enact and enforce laws, to provide protection from hostile countries, to provide basic infrastructure, and to collect taxes to support these endeavors. Anything else falls outside the original reason a government exists, and therefore cannot realize it's full potential.
5. Social programs do not fall within the original scope of the government.
6. Social programs are something that we all must take responsibilty for. Certainly a society as a whole has needs to provide for certain individuals who simply cannot provide for themselves, and I assume nobody on this forum would advocate killing mentally retarded citizens because they couldn't provide for themselves. I would also assume that we would all agree that society doesn't need to provide for those who simply choose not to do anything with their lives.

Okay, so we have hopefully agreed to a number of key points. Now consider this:

Imagine a government that exists only for the purposes of law enactment and enforcement, national defense, and basic infrastructure. Oh yeah, and tax collection. It would be very inexpensive to run this government compared to what we currently know. Lets say we could do it at a 10-15% consumption rate.

Staying with me now, lets look at the social programs and entitlements that our American government (well, all goverments) have to bear. They are loaded with corruption and inefficiency, basically because they fall outside the real scope of governement. A simple example is that once an entitlement is granted, it is virtually impossible to remove regardless of it's need. We rely on elected officials to handle distribution of tax dollars to social needs, but they often do so in order to impress voters, which is to say based soley on perceived benefit to their next election and not on actual need. It's just a worn out idea that costs us all way too much and accomplishes too little.

So how do I propose we handle the needs of the homeless, the mentally insane, the developmentally disabled, the elderly, and so many others? Simply and effectively: The government would oversee collection of another 10% tax in consumption for the purpose of social programs and entitlements to be sent to the private organization(s) of the tax payer's choice on an annual basis as a part of law enforcement. If you so chose, you could voluntarily make donations above and beyond the manditory 10% to suppliment some of these programs - Christians might consider this the right way to tithe, and/or you might have an area that you are especially passionate about. Who voluntarily gives the IRS an extra freaking dime? Oh yeah, and any organization, including the government itself would be subject to a public audit every 5 years to account for tax payer spending.

Think about this. An effective consumption tax rate of no more than 25% to maximize economy growth and government revenue. You choose where your money goes. Social programs that exist because they care about their cause in the first place get the money. Survival of the fittest (most efficient and productive) means only the best programs stay alive.

Consider it more. The entire country would naturally move in the directions it really needed because you would truly vote with your dollars! If a void presented itself - maybe cancer research, then you can bet more people would direct more dollars in that direction the next year. Likewise, if too much was going into one direction and people felt that a certain area was wasting more money than it needed, then it would be a safe bet that less money would end up there the next year. This is how a truest form of a democracy could exist with more than 300,000,000 citizens. Somebody will ask what qualifies an organization for these dollars? Vote for your representatives well, because that would fall under law enactment and enforcement.

What about organizations within the same realm? Same deal as businesses competing in the real world today. If McDonald's finds a way to be more efficient than other fast food chains, then they may end up on top in '06. Likewise, if Burgerking offers the best new burger this year, they may end up outgrowing McD's. The beauty of capitalism emerges and the best run, most efficient programs end up on top. Get big and do the wrong thing? Look at Enron - keep in mind that the adminstrators of Social Security would be subject to prosecution and incarceration if the same retirement plan policies were used by any private firm out there. The whle concept works in private business, and so it should work the same in publically funded social programs. Oh yeah, and the basic purposes of federal/state/local governments would be better off than ever before.

So there's no real point in this since I will probably not get a chance to overthrow any small island governement and give it a go, but it seems like the most logical next step IMO. It's all for fun, so for the politically minded, lets discuss...
 
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Adjuster

Supramania Contributor
Good luck.
I choose New ZeaLand.

Nice island nation, they speak english, and the countryside is awesome!

Let's start up your 25% max tax nation with 10% self directed to the social benefit organization of your choice. (I choose to put mine into hospitals and healthcare 5% and the rest into road building of no speed limit highways. :) )
 

Facime

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Well since you mentioned my name...

Its not a bad concept but the biggest problem I see is that Politics already is "big business". The only problem is it is only profitable for the politicians, not the people who elected them.

Thats about the only thing I have to say, since I have made a promise to myself not to get involved in political threads anymore. At least not on a Car forum ;)
 

Shytheed Dumas

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Well, I hoped this political thread would just be for fun for a change, Weezl. ;) I was just asking for some of the people who had spoken up a lot - not because I have a beef with anybody.

About the big business end of politics, this concept would pull a lot of the $$$ right out of the politician's hands and directly into the hands of every person paying taxes.

BTW Adjuster, I'm all over the idea of speed limit free highways! I think that would end up having to fall under infrastructure and the federal government, though.
 

cadman

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Aug 10, 2006
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And more strict driving tests!! WOHOO!!!

I've always liked the idea of a flat tax. Hey, if you can't do it with the money you're getting, find another way. Period. It's like fixing a flat with another tire. Pretty soon you have a car with 27 wheels and everytime one wears out, or goes flat, you just add another wheel.
 

Nick M

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DreamerTheresa said:
Theresa for Dictator. :)
If the Lord selects you for the Monarch, then sure. I am guessing no.

4. A government really only exists for a few key reasons: To enact and enforce laws, to provide protection from hostile countries, to provide basic infrastructure, and to collect taxes to support these endeavors. Anything else falls outside the original reason a government exists, and therefore cannot realize it's full potential

The founding fathers laid out a way to lay and collect taxes. And income tax isn't one of them. Your reasons for government are spot on.
 
L

lanky189

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You basically just described the ideal liberatarian state..


the only problem however is that governments are run by humans...humans are fallible...so therefore governments are too..

check into Neil Boortz...the talk radio guy..you'll like what he has to say
 

Shytheed Dumas

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Libertarian, eh? That's interesting, because I thought of it as capitalism at its purest by taking power from the government and letting the free market dictate social policy - something the world has always said 'has' to be handled by governments.

IDK, maybe that is libertarian-like, but I know there's a lot about libertarianism that doesn't fit me very well, hence my name for the entire new concept:

Kurtopianism :biggrinki
 

Supra Blues

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It sounds like a solid plan except for the following:

1. People are stupid and don't take the time or energy to really learn the facts and issues, they just vote along party lines and/or who appears better on camera.

2. This would mean that the citizens would have to take the time to research (eeek!) and decide. Thus, people would have to take responsibility (uh oh) for their decisions. Therefore it will fail.

Most people want others to make the decision so they cannot be held responsible and be sued, exiled, publicly humiliated by others who have 20/20 hindsight.
 

Nick M

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Supra Blues said:
It sounds like a solid plan except for the following:

1. People are stupid and don't take the time or energy to really learn the facts and issues, they just vote along party lines and/or who appears better on camera.

2. This would mean that the citizens would have to take the time to research (eeek!) and decide. Thus, people would have to take responsibility (uh oh) for their decisions. Therefore it will fail.

Most people want others to make the decision so they cannot be held responsible and be sued, exiled, publicly humiliated by others who have 20/20 hindsight.

Typical left wing elitist attitude. People are too stupid to take care of themselves, and need the government to do it for you. I think the success of the USA and other free countries proves otherwise.
 

Supracentral

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Libertarian, eh? That's interesting, because I thought of it as capitalism at its purest by taking power from the government and letting the free market dictate social policy - something the world has always said 'has' to be handled by governments.

Libertarianisim supports pure free market capitalisim.

"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns - or dollars. Take your choice - there is no other - and your time is running out." - Ayn Rand
 
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Nick M said:
If the Lord selects you for the Monarch, then sure. I am guessing no.


Keep your steeeneeeeng monarchy. I'm talking Dictatorship (and what does your Lord have to do with this?). And walling in Ohio and running it like that movie Mike talks about. "Running Man"? It has Ahnold in it.
 

Nick M

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Dictatorship usually just refers to a monarch that people see as evil. A monarch is a government without a legislature. Joe Stallin could be referred to as a dictator, but the legislature still made all of their rules.

and what does the Lord have to do with this?).
He doesn't like legislatures. Take a good look at ours.
 

Shytheed Dumas

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Supracentral said:
Libertarianisim supports pure free market capitalisim.

"Until and unless you discover that money is the root of all good, you ask for your own destruction. When money ceases to be the tool by which men deal with one another, then men become the tools of men. Blood, whips and guns - or dollars. Take your choice - there is no other - and your time is running out." - Ayn Rand


I should have probably posted on the Money/Root thread, but I was taking a break at the time, whew! :icon_bigg I can almost agree, but I believe that money is neither good nor bad - it's just a thing. People decide whether to use it for good or evil, just like any other inanimate object, except that the potential to do extreme good or evil is greater with money than with a toaster or a sock.

Free market capitalism seems to be one of two things (the other being size of govt) that conservatives and libertarians can agree upon in spite of other things (in no way relating to this thread) that are in complete opposition.

How about some more thoughts from the left? Is this a great idea on paper because it could do more to help those who need it which is the ultimate goal, or is it a terrible idea because only the government should be responsible for deciding on these things? Just curious - I promise I won't attack.