9:1compression

IJ.

Grumpy Old Man
Mar 30, 2005
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turbodriz said:
Do not be ignorant, the reason for joining the supra community is so that I can get educated on the car I know plenty about cars not much about a 7ms threshhold. And read what you write if a motor is a motor than there should'nt be much difference between a 7m and any other motor.


Ignorant? me?

The 7M has some specific quirks for sure but it's still a motor and what I said holds true.

Sealing the head is ALWAYS going to be an issue with a 7M but in your case doubly so with the combination you want to run.

Tell ya what good luck on your build I hope it goes well......bye
 

mdr40z

New Member
Mar 31, 2005
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racers have run low compression with higher boost forever to keep the stuff inside, I'm with IJ.
Put down 500 and see how you like a permanant SE grin with very little traction, then see if you wanna play more
 

NashMan

WTF did he just wright ?
Aug 5, 2005
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i find that 9.3.1 is fine as long as it's tuned for it but you can't run that much boost wiht out c16

i ran around on 94 octain at 22 psi with my base timing set at 10dagrees since i am useing the lex afm

i tried 12 dagrees but i choudl nto run as much boost

and yeild mroe power wiht more boost and retared timing

but all of this was done on ct26 57 trim

with the pte 67 i hope to run 18 psi but we will find out
 

IJ.

Grumpy Old Man
Mar 30, 2005
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9.1:1 + 30psi = "Can I take a total loss on an engine if something goes even slightly wrong"

If the answer to this is No might be an idea to back the static comp down a bit so there's a safety margin.

If Yes go for it!

At this point I'd be looking at a standalone that can monitor the KS and retard the time if needs be just in case you get a load of subpar fuel.
 

NashMan

WTF did he just wright ?
Aug 5, 2005
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IJ. said:
9.1:1 + 30psi = "Can I take a total loss on an engine if something goes even slightly wrong"

If the answer to this is No might be an idea to back the static comp down a bit so there's a safety margin.

If Yes go for it!

At this point I'd be looking at a standalone that can monitor the KS and retard the time if needs be just in case you get a load of subpar fuel.

well you can get bad gas any were but if you tune for certon gas ether way the motor will just fuck it self up no matter what you comp it is

sure there some lee way but fi you are tune to max liek some poeple do it will just blow u[p int he end

how i look at it is you make decition big boost or not as big of boost


another point to bring to the table is look at honda owners most of all honda run hihg high comp motors and cna pull abpout 12 psi like for exmple rsx 11 comp ratio if i remmber right person around here ran 14 psi in his car


eh

in the end it tuning no matter what you comp is and the mangment that is runing it all
 
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Dirgle

Conjurer of Boost
Mar 30, 2005
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Turbodriz: You might want to do a little studying into water/methanol injection as it will greatly help in controlling detonation when your running pressures that high. Here are a couple of sites with some info, but I would recommend using Google and researching a little deeper.

http://www.sdsefi.com/techocta.htm

http://www.snowperformance.net/faq.asp

Also, pushing a 9.1:1 or 9.5:1 at low to mid 30 PSI WILL be pushing the 7M to the limit. To be able to build a motor that can run at the limit will require a great deal of research, tuning, time, and money. And more importantly experience. Fall short on any of these and the motor will die gloriously. Because the motor is run so close to the edge, there is no room for error, no buffer zone, the engine cannot tolerate it.

It’s true our motors don’t like to rev. Do you know why this is? It has to do with the very long stroke; it raises the piston speed to dizzying heights causing a great deal of stress on the internals. Building up the head helps airflow at higher speeds, but does nothing to deal with the initial problem, piston speeds. Read this for a little more info.

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showpost.php?p=180719&postcount=18

As for the cast iron block, yes, ours is cast iron, but so is the JZ. Both the JZ series and M series motors are aluminum head iron block. However the JZ series motors have a shorter stroke and are therefore more rev happy, this allows them to reach high horse power numbers easier. And the heads come designed to take advantage of the higher revs.

The JZ series motors are just more technologically advanced, they studied the flaws of the 7M and built a better motor. Toyota realized the long stroke wasn’t good for durability in a sports car, where people tend to rev it. So they shortened the stroke. Toyota realized they placed the cylinders too close together, so the moved them farther apart on the JZ blocks.

I’ve only heard of one instance where a guy hit 900hp on stock 2JZ internals, 600hp is considered the norm. 500hp is achievable on a 7M motor that doesn’t have 20 years and 200,000 miles on it

You mentioned iron blocks being able to handle a lot of abuse. Yes this is true, however on the 7M the cylinders are placed very close together, closer than most blocks. This causes the head gasket to be very thin where the cylinders meet. This is the weak link if you were to run high compression at 30+ PSI. The second the motor detonates at those pressure levels it will punch right through the head gasket. No leeway for error, no second chance. Your tuning MUST be perfect. Can you guarantee this?

I’m not saying that the road you want to take is impossible but, you will have to do a lot of research, you can’t just slap the motor together with over night parts from Japan, and expect it to work. You have to have the right parts and those parts must be set to the right tolerances. It will also be expensive to do it right. If you understand and are ready for those things then more power to you.

Also, listen to what IJ has to say, you don’t have to agree with him but at least hear what he has to say and consider it. IJ has spent more time pushing the limits of the 7M than most people here could ever dream of. As well as the limits of many other motors. The things he tells you come from experience, and you could learn a lot from him. He is not going to purposefully miss lead you, or intentionally give you incorrect information. Listen to his words of advice, he is here to help.
 
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turbodriz

mk3 onwer
Feb 25, 2006
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So To Achieve The 750 To800 Hp What Is The Community Suggestions. Already Aem Standalone And Gt40 Turbo. AND EVEN WITH AN HKS HEAD GASKET SEALING IS STILL AN ISSUE AT HIGH BOOST? THE FORUM ON STROKING I HAVE ALREADY READ . PLEASE KNOW THAT I LIVE ON THIS SITE.
 
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Reign_Maker

Has cheezberger
Aug 31, 2005
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dirgle said:
500hp is achievable on a 7M motor that doesn’t have 20 years and 200,000 miles on it.

Also, listen to what IJ has to say, you don’t have to agree with him but at least hear what he has to say and consider it. IJ has spent more time pushing the limits of the 7M than most people here could ever dream of. As well as the limits of many other motors. The things he tells you come from experience, and you could learn a lot from him. He is not going to purposefully miss lead you, or intentionally give you incorrect information. Listen to his words of advice, he is here to help.

I made 512 on stock internals, safely... And yeah, listen to IJ... :D
*That was a great write up Dirgle*

Driz, what turbo are you running exactly? I know you said GT40, but there are a few different types... I'm running Wiseco 9:1 pistons and a GT4067R turbo... *well, I WILL be running it when I get it put back in the car* IM doing a build for 750-800 hp and I REALLY hope that my set up wont require me to push into the 30psi range for that power... There are ALOT of things you can do to hit that power with out changing the compression ratio of your motor and pushing it to the limit, like IJ is saying... For example, my whole intake set up is huge... My head is ALOT more free flowing... I have ALOT of fuel... I'll have a big exhaust... etc... etc... etc... Anything I can to make her breathe better and flow better... See? If I can't hit 750 under 30psi, then I might consider other options, like nitrous or meth/water injection... I dont wanna lean to much on giving you advice, because as of right now, I dont have a whole leg to stand on, but I've done ALOT of research on this, and talked to the big dawgs on here, like Ian, Bryan, Dave, Steve and Duane... Just listen to what they are saying, and watch what they are doing... It's the best thing I can tell you now...
 

turbodriz

mk3 onwer
Feb 25, 2006
471
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Maybe I Need A Little More Directions On What Is Responsive As Far As Upgrades When It Comes To The 7m. You And I Have The Same Hp Goals. When You Say Your Intake System Is Huge What Do You Mean. And I Did Not Order The Turbo Yet So Whatever Is Good For The Power I Am Looking For Will Be The Gt40 I Go With.
 

Reign_Maker

Has cheezberger
Aug 31, 2005
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I have a Ron R front face intake, check out this thread: http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6519 Talk to him about his FFI manis, they're the shit! I have a Q45 90mm throttle body... All my IC pipes are 3"... I will be using a 4" thick fmic... My head has 1mm over sized valves, a port and polish, port matching the head to the intake/exhaust manifolds... I'll be running stock cams, for now... I've been told time and again, you dont want to change out too much too fast... See what you can do with the stock cams, then if you need to upgrade, do it then... My exhaust mani is an SS Autochrome s/s tubular T4... My turbo has an .81AR exhaust housing with a 3" Vband... Im not sure how I'll do my DP, I need to see how much room I'll have, but I'd LIKE to doa 3" to 4" dp, then a full 4" exhaust... However, I may have to doa 3" dp and a 4" cat back... But I want as LITTLE back pressure as possible...

Having a FFI, a 3" throttle body, free flowing head, I expect better spool and quicker throttle response...

If you want a big power, and are willing to spend the money, PM me and I'll tell you where I got my GT4067R turbo... It's a hybrid, capable of flowing over 900hp... If you notice the GT4088's are good for "700+hp"... The 4067's are little more, but I think worth it...
 

Halsupramk3

Member
Apr 4, 2005
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I have 9:1 compression as a side effect of my rebuild. I did not intend to do 9:1 but i did not get custom pistons. I am having my new sp61gt tuned with aem and 720s. Currently at 11 psi i am hitting 291 rwhp on a dyno dynamics on 93 octane. I will have to get the fuel curve better to get more power or go higher. My tuner as gixxer stated thinks 12 to 14 psi on 93 is max safe point. what happens if i spike or if intake temps go up too much? You runn out of safety margin quick. I will find out what it will run on race gas soon. Right now i have a spike in a/f from 10.5 to 12+ afr from 3800rpm to 4400 rpm with the highpoint at 4250rpm. It hits 12 afr at 4250. I dont know why. It may be a fuel preasure problem. On my old stock ct i was doing 275 rwhp at 11psi. It would spool easy in 5th gear. My ct went from 3psi at 2600 rpm to full 11 psi at 3150 in a third gear pull but steadyly decrease down to 9 psi starting at 4250 rpm. That higher compression really worked with a smaller turbo. Spooling was no prob. I havent got my boost selinoid working perfect with the aem and tial wg yet.
You can run 9:1 but tuning must be exact ie best not to run piggy back but a stand alone because timing will be a bigger issue as exact fuel and boost control will. You will not be able to stuff as much air in to a 9:1 as you would 8.4:1.
 

bigaaron

Supramania Contributor
Apr 12, 2005
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www.driftmotion.com
turbodriz said:
Do not be ignorant, the reason for joining the supra community is so that I can get educated on the car I know plenty about cars not much about a 7ms threshhold.

IJ ignorant? :aigo: No, ignorant is saying you know plenty about cars after asking a bunch of "turbocharging 101" questions, and then insulting one of the forums most knowledgeable members.
 
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IJ.

Grumpy Old Man
Mar 30, 2005
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Aaron: Thanks!

Driz and I have been talking in PM's and it's all cool now!

He has a lot of drag related questions such as how much HP will be needed to get a Mk3 into the mid 10's so I'll pass that to you guys that know such things! ;)
 

Slow66

I think with my dipstick
Apr 3, 2005
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Ok, i did not read this whole thread, But i figured id add my 2 cents...

We buikt Gennas old motor with 9.5:1 and ran 30 psi on it. The result? 674 whp with a sp71. It can make much more with some head porting and some real cams instead of the stockers. (i firmly believe the stock cams are the biggest reason why 7m guys aremt making much more than 650whp w/o juice)

Wheres that motor now you ask? Its a boat anchor because an injector driver went and burned a piston in half. Would it have happened if it were still at 8.4:1? sure would have. But my point is that these motors are very finicky. Raising the compression is only adding the the already large # of things that can go wrong.

My advise would be to use the same 8.0-8.5:1, and invest alot of money into the valvetrain (cams!) and head porting, and use a 74mm or similar turbo at 30-35psi and make power that way.

Its hard enough to keep the head from lifting with stock compression, nevermind adding a full point.

JMO though.....
 

turbodriz

mk3 onwer
Feb 25, 2006
471
0
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newyork....N.c
ALRIGHT GUYS .... I GET THE POINT NOW. Just quick question, if I'm running an hks headgasket 1.2mm which already have on my old setup know that thick headgasket does'nt lower the compression? And I Agree on the cam idea, the first thing I did was cams in my car on the old setup. I went with regrinds and trust me there is a hell of a difference up top.
 

IJ.

Grumpy Old Man
Mar 30, 2005
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Driz: It's actually raising the comp slightly as the stock composite compresses to 1.37mm from memory!

The 7M really wakes up if you let it breathe with nice cams!

Bryan: Any ideas on how much power is needed to put a Mk3 into the mid 10's?
 

turbodriz

mk3 onwer
Feb 25, 2006
471
0
0
newyork....N.c
I have heard alot of you guys talking about the head lifiting, the arp studs are'nt taking care of this problem. Our does this go back to the issue about the engine is designed? I also heard that as far as specs , that the motor needs to built more on the tight side.....Would anybody know where I can get some numbers from so that I can tell the machinest the way it needs to be. Please don't get me wrong he is good but it never hurts to check. I lost the paper that had my specs for my cams which sucks because I could never check the valves but its okay because he is getting the head back anyway. I know that it was in the 270ish dur.