86.5 NA run with no oil...knock knock knock!

[afofsupra]

Hey supra fans! Nice site with tons of info. I'd like to thank all those who have contributed and continue to make this site a great resource.

My friend is the original owner of this 86.5 supra NA. Low mileage, ~80k and he had the bhg back in the early 90s. He had his oil changed at jiffy and they stripped his oil plug so that it leaks. Fast forward a few years and the toyota intermittent starter problem (that's where I come in, he bought a reman that we installed but didn't fix the problem so I wired a relay) so it had been a while since he was regularly driving it. Well, he forgot to check the oil and spun a bearing or 2. I assume, could've spun em all and destroyed the crank as he drove it till it had no power (knocking up a storm) before he called me. I figured the motor to pretty bad and since he was only 10 min from home to get 3 qts 50w oil and 2qts lucas oil to put in.

He made it home and when I came over it didn't sound as bad as I thought it would, he said it was a lot louder before he called. So we got one of those JDM 7mge off ebay since there weren't any available locally for same money. It's definitely a cresida motor and it's had some cooling system work. A few hoses on the water neck are worm clamps and some of the fan nuts were rounded off. #6 Spark plug is black with a large sludge deposit on it. Pulled the oil pan and #6 rod cap is black. I think the rings are bad in #6 as the the rest of the bottom end looks pristine.

We were planning on putting in a generic metal head gasket so when the head is off we'll pull the pistons to check it out (bearings, crank, rings). Since it's NA and doesn't see boost, is a high end gasket like a cometic gonna provide something a felpro won't? Usually I'd just straight edge the block & head in this sort of situation, but should it go to a machine shop to get decked?

Does anyone have a recommendation for a good machine shop in the Baltimore, MD area? I haven't sent anything to a shop since the 80s and that was domestic, I used Mazer brothers in Essex / Middle River area then.

I was planning on rebuilding the original 7mge if it isn't too far gone....oversize bearings, oversize pistions if the walls are scored. There doesn't seem to be a lot of upgrades you can do to the 7mge without serious investment. The return on investment favors a turbo conversion.
Other rides include 2nd gen 77 Z/28 Camaro & 90 G60 corrado. I can definitely get more bang for the buck outta the chevy as far as budget builds go.
You see MKIII on craigslist all the time under 1,000 for NA unless they are in great shape then it's still under 3,000. Turbos range from 1-6,500 depending on shape & investment.

That's ma story & Ima stickin to it!!

 

[kHaNg]

should it matter if the machine shop is domestic or not? idk

 

[Setheroo]

should it matter if the machine shop is domestic or not? idk

He is saying that he sent off something that was domestic, or at least that is what I understood his post to say.

Oh and just to mention, it definitely makes a difference to send your head and block to a machinist who is familiar with these engines and everything that goes with them... or you could end up like the member here who took their head to a machinist who didn't know anything about milling the head down to the right RA... iirc they belt sanded his head... which is NOT good.

afofsupra - It really sucks to have to deal with rodknock - and let me just tell you now, if you are looking real power potential, make the switch to a turbo now while it is easiest. But if you plan to just keep things as is, you can get the head milled... and use a stock toyota head gasket.

If you really insist on a MHG - then get the block, head, and front timing cover milled (keep in mind, RA is a big deal, you want to be ~30 for a MHG iirc). At that point - you might as well top it all off with a set of ARP's.

Good luck to you, I hope I was of some help.

 

[afofsupra]

khang,
Sethroo is right, the last machine work I had done was to a ford 4cyl in around 1990.

Setheroo,
My friend doesn't have any plans for power in this car, or at least not any that costs money, so to me that means keep er stock. He's got a gasket rebuild kit so I don't know the mfg or if it's mhg. I told him that most enthusiast s.o.p. was mhg ($140) and ARP studs ($140) plus the cost of machine work. That was too expensive, he said he got all the gaskets for under $200. Keep in mind, you shop at china-mart you get china-mart quality. Labor (+time +inconvenience) always costs more than parts

Thanks guys for the replies!!!

 

[Rennat]

go to jscspeed.com best prices around. especially for metal head gaskets (mhg)

and the head that was belt sanded was MINE... i was fuckin pissed!
but its all settled now, and i got another one... but before you even ask any price questions. say this:

What RA Spec do your machines hit?

if they dont have an answer... walk away, and say thanks...
if they hit around/under 30, which 90% of the machine shops i talked to said they could, then get a quote... the head will run you about... 300-500 depending on the shop.
and there is no sense in going with a metal head gasket IMO... your not boosted, i would stick with the composite one so it has a better chance of sealing, and that way you dont have to worry so much about the head flatness.....

it all comes down to how much money you wanna put into it...

 

[sgtmcboom]

Remember to replace the oil pump tho and you will need to re use your old oil pan if its a cressida pan and the oil pump is diffrent also. Oil pump will be around $120-$200. If I could do it again my car might be a turbo right now. My old mechanic thought it would be a great idea to reuse my old oil pump from my old engine with rod knock brilliant right? Well it ran for about 6 months and then went the knocking way itself. So be careful when it comes to these engines you run low on oil once and its toast.

 

[cuel]

Oil pump: http://cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/manual.aspx?S=LU&P=10 Just so you know what the specs are, and can check the stock one.

The best thing you can do is get an oil pump for a turbo motor, and shim it 5mm. Will give you an increase in pressure at idle, as well as at wot, from what I understand.

 

[Chambers]

For machine work, look for a Kunkles in the area, I have a friend that took a Honda head to be rebuilt and they did an exceptional job. They do all kinds of machine work for import and domestic. I know of two off hand, one in Bel Air and the second in Aberdeen.

 

[afofsupra]

Rennat, thanks, and yes I believe yours was the thread that opened my eyes. That "What RA Spec do your machines hit?" will be the 1st question! I agree about the MHG, no reason a properly torqued composite gasket should fail in a NA daily driver commuter. Besides, the car just clicked 100,000 miles before he spun a bearing and even though the body is in good shape (no rust or dents) the interior screams 20yrs old! Faded seats, cracked dash, chewed steering wheel & arm rest.....and that damn trunk leak!

sgtmcboom,
Thanks for the reminder on the oil pump. I was just going to clean & mic the supra's original pump so depending on how it reads.....

Cuel,
Thanks for the tsrm link on the oil pump, bookmarked. I had read that somewhere the oil pumps were compatible from turbo --> na but not na --> turbo, (something or about higher pressure I thought) so that's a good idea. I understand that the true design flaw of the 7m is oil system, low pressure high volume & extreme sensitivity to oil level. I was surprised to see this allegedly low mileage JDM motor with a spun bearing until I read that. Lots of cars can run 2qts low without failing but don't try it in the 7m!!!

Chambers,
I've used kunkels (http://www.kunkelservice.com/automotive_machine_shop_service_div.htm) for a lot of machine work over the years, all detroit though. This'll be the first run for foreign service. I've had good luck with Mazer Brothers on Eastern ave, but again, only domestic detroit stuff. It seems their address (126 Eastern Blvd, Baltimore, MD 21221) is also listed as J&D Machine.

This can get expensive fast, machine work, oversized rod bearings (maybe mains too ), possibly oversized rings, arp head studs....wonder if I could sneak in cams & an exhaust
jscspeed has clevite rods for $30, mains $39 & thrust washers for $9 for a total of $78, that's cheap! Good price on arp203-4202 head studs @ $118 total $198 + s&h. Summitracing has arp @ $129, rods @ $8.7 * 6, mains $47.7 total 228.90 free s&h.
Driftmotion, arp $125 & clevite set $125, total $250. I do like the idea of driftmotion's 7/16 exhaust stud idea.

 

[IJ.]

Why bother with a MHG on a GE?

 

[Fuzz420]

Why bother with a MHG on a GE?

I thought the same thing untill my ge blew a headgasket

 

[IJ.]

Done correctly a composite HG should be 100% fine for a GE....

Operative word here "correctly"

 

[AJ'S 88NA]

I chose the MHG just so it could be used over again, just in case I didn't do it right

 

[cuel]

I've had a composite head gasket(Felpro) on my car for almost three years now, no problems. I drive hard, too. Often run up to red line before I shift. Race quite a bit, as well. Like IJ said, done right, a composite gasket will do the job nicely.

 

[AJ'S 88NA]

^^Not disputing that done right the stock HG would work well on a non boosted 7m, but what about high compression, or a 101mm stroker? I just liked the idea that the MHG could be used over again and felt it was worth the extra money to have that option.

 

[IJ.]

Build the motor so the head doesn't have to come off often not an option?
(If the heads off you're replacing gaskets anyway and comp HG's aren't expensive in a VRS kit)

 

[AJ'S 88NA]

Build the motor so the head doesn't have to come off often not an option?
(If the heads off you're replacing gaskets anyway and comp HG's aren't expensive in a VRS kit)

True very true, I like breaking it so I can fix it again

 

[cuel]

I'll go with a composite gasket on my new motor as well. Seriously thinking about going with 10.5:1 pistons as well. Both the block deck and head will be surfaced back to a smooth, perfectly flat finish, to be certain that I get a good seal. I know a few guys making over 1000 hp, all motor, in big blocks with composite gaskets. It's more about how well the motor is built, and how much attention was paid to the fine details, than what kind of gasket is being used. The best, most expensive metal head gasket you can get will leak if you torque the bolts wrong, don't get a good enough ra on the block or head, or about a hundred other different little things that can go wrong. As a matter of fact, even MORE attention has to be paid to the fine details with a metal gasket. They are much less forgiving.

Edit: If you do plan on going through the motor often, the metal gasket would be the way to go, as it can be used over and over again. I've seen a lot of the more professional racers around here go that way, for exactly that reason. Every few races, they pull the motor down to check all the tolerances, and fix or replace anything that doesn't meet up to their exacting standards.

 

[IJ.]

I was always taught a Composite HG needs a rough finish to give "teeth" to bite/hold it?

 

[afofsupra]

Agreed, mhg overkill on na motors.

Talked to a local machine shop (kunkels), $40 resurface head, $40 resurface block, $20 connecting rods, $110 turn crank and $175 line bore block if mains are needed.

Picking up a 88 auto with bad motor, new block & head w/ machine work done that needs assembly for $500 so going with that route to fix this one. Probably send one of the 3 blown motors out for service or change the auto to turbo. Body & interior in good to excellent condition, blue on blue (I think interior is blue).