7MGTE Oil pressure system.

[suprarx7nut]

What kind of pressure loss is seen with a thermostatically controlled external full-flow setup? I have no feel for whether its a few psi or more.

I have always liked the more modern coolant-based oil coolers such as on the JZ engines or pretty much anything else these days. Seems it has the advantage of warming the oil when cold without requiring a thermostat which will eventually fail.

Pi it would be tough to accurately answer that question.

I do not know the actual gallons per minute the 7M engine oil pumps through the system.

Someone could set up a test stand and spin the pump under pressure to measure the flow output.
But the chances of someone actually doing that are slim to none.

To get a rough estimate:
Here is a nice chart showing pressure drop values per 10 feet of line.
Most people use dash -8 or 1/2" ID lines, so use that column.
Pressure drop values listed here are calculated at 100°F temperature for petroleum based oil.
This chart only accounts for the line itself, not any fittings in the system.
http://pressureconnections.com/customer/prcoco/customerpages/literature/Hose_Pressure_Drop_Chart.pdf

My best guess for flow rates on this engine would be:
5 GPM @ 3,000 RPM
10 GPM @ 6,000 RPM

I helped CRE install a full flow system years back. I didn't write down the pressure loss, but it was minimal according to the admittedly terrible factory gauge. We/he noted it before the full flow circuit and then after. Same motor, no other changes other than the new cooler circuit and the addition of a CT-26.

I expected it to be significant and it was barely noticeable as I recall. Of course, that could change drastically pending what lines, cooler and hose lengths are used.

 

[Piratetip]

Yeah the gauge is basically useless.
You would need to install a pressure transducer and log the output with a data logger.

 

[tissimo]

Pi it would be tough to accurately answer that question.

I do not know the actual gallons per minute the 7M engine oil pumps through the system.

Someone could set up a test stand and spin the pump under pressure to measure the flow output.
But the chances of someone actually doing that are slim to none.

To get a rough estimate:
Here is a nice chart showing pressure drop values per 10 feet of line.
Most people use dash -8 or 1/2" ID lines, so use that column.
Pressure drop values listed here are calculated at 100°F temperature for petroleum based oil.
This chart only accounts for the line itself, not any fittings in the system.
http://pressureconnections.com/customer/prcoco/customerpages/literature/Hose_Pressure_Drop_Chart.pdf

My best guess for flow rates on this engine would be:
5 GPM @ 3,000 RPM
10 GPM @ 6,000 RPM

The only real issue with pressure loss through the lines would be at idle, but flow would be small so the effect is very minimal. At speed the stock system would be a lot more detrimental to the pressure than the few extra feet of lines. Combine the full flow system with an upgraded Pressure feed off the oil pump (removing the terribly restrictive banjo bolt) would negate any loss of the lines.

 

[Piratetip]

The only real issue with pressure loss through the lines would be at idle, but flow would be small so the effect is very minimal. At speed the stock system would be a lot more detrimental to the pressure than the few extra feet of lines. Combine the full flow system with an upgraded Pressure feed off the oil pump (removing the terribly restrictive banjo bolt) would negate any loss of the lines.

Why would you only associate a pressure drop at a lower flow idle condition?
Trying to understand your thinking behind this.

I have also mitigated potential losses in all the banjo bolts in the stock system as well, FYI.
They are no longer stock, per say.
All the orifices have been enlarged.

Without actual pressure readings at the pump vs at the engine its all speculation anyway.
Someone would have to take pressure and flow measurements on a stock vs modified oiling system.

Pressure loss across a length of hose is a real measurable effect, not an idea pulled out of thin air.
In the same way you can measure the voltage drop across a section of wire under load.

 

[3p141592654]

My best guess for flow rates on this engine would be:
5 GPM @ 3,000 RPM
10 GPM @ 6,000 RPM

So it looks like maybe 2 psi for the hoses, and maybe another 2 for the cooler and fittings at 5 GPM. That doesn't seem too bad.

 

[suprarx7nut]

Why would you only associate a pressure drop at a lower flow idle condition?
Trying to understand your thinking behind this.

I have also mitigated potential losses in all the banjo bolts in the stock system as well, FYI.
They are no longer stock, per say.
All the orifices have been enlarged.

Without actual pressure readings at the pump vs at the engine its all speculation anyway.
Someone would have to take pressure and flow measurements on a stock vs modified oiling system.

Pressure loss across a length of hose is a real measurable effect, not an idea pulled out of thin air.
In the same way you can measure the voltage drop across a section of wire under load.

I'm with you.

I also don't see why the factory system would be restrictive. Does the OEM filter bracket restrict flow at typical flow rates for a 7M? I didn't think it did.

 

[3p141592654]

I think the focus on idle was due to the low stock pressure at idle, which would make even small extra pressure drops significant. At 3000 rpm where you have 30+ psi a 2psi drop is no big deal. That said, at idle the flow rate is much less, so the drop should scale accordingly.

 

[simond355]

Please someone who actually done this, im a bit confused over this picture.
Do you have to like ''cross'' line it like i did in editor? if so, why is there two plugs on same side?? Arrows are messed up?

 

[tissimo]

Why would you only associate a pressure drop at a lower flow idle condition?
Trying to understand your thinking behind this.

I have also mitigated potential losses in all the banjo bolts in the stock system as well, FYI.
They are no longer stock, per say.
All the orifices have been enlarged.

Without actual pressure readings at the pump vs at the engine its all speculation anyway.
Someone would have to take pressure and flow measurements on a stock vs modified oiling system.

Pressure loss across a length of hose is a real measurable effect, not an idea pulled out of thin air.
In the same way you can measure the voltage drop across a section of wire under load.

I think the focus on idle was due to the low stock pressure at idle, which would make even small extra pressure drops significant. At 3000 rpm where you have 30+ psi a 2psi drop is no big deal. That said, at idle the flow rate is much less, so the drop should scale accordingly.

Yeah, exactly as Pi said. I'm basically saying its a non-issue, especially when talking versus the stock bleeder style cooler which has a far greater loss of pressure than a few feet of line.

 

[Piratetip]

Yeah, exactly as Pi said. I'm basically saying its a non-issue, especially when talking versus the stock bleeder style cooler which has a far greater loss of pressure than a few feet of line.

True, though I am not comparing those two.
I am comparing a full flow external style cooler to my modified stock oil filter housing w/ custom separate oil cooler loop.

 

[Piratetip]

View attachment 80244


Please someone who actually done this, im a bit confused over this picture.
Do you have to like ''cross'' line it like i did in editor? if so, why is there two plugs on same side?? Arrows are messed up?

Looks like you posted up an image of an aftermarket oil filter housing.

Thermostats usually work like this.


Example
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...BVh8LKQiU_Q7_OUdkgRAI60kvCokOUoRoCTbYQAvD_BwE

 

[tissimo]

I'll try to summarize quickly.

Stock oil filter housing/cooler
Pro - good packaging / compact
- low component count / potential external failure points.
- shortest oil path to feed the engine (lowest pumping losses)
- no expandable components ( soft lines)

Con - pressure based cooler bleeds off a small portion of the oil feed to the engine.
- small(er) orifices at critical junctions / connections / banjo bolts

Full Flow System
Pro - fully integrated oil filter / cooler and thermostat in one
- all flow from the oil pump feeds the engine ( none bled off to be cooled and drained back to the pan)

Con - large number of external connections and components. If any one of these fails your engine looses pressure and boom metal glitter in your pan
- 5 ft + of external soft lines (SSN or Teflon shrouded ect..) the oil pump must push through before going back to the engine
- higher pumping losses
- increased weight and component count

There are probably other points I am forgetting ATM.

So I kept the stock system and corrected the cons list as well as totally eliminated the pressure bleed off oil cooler system.
I still utilize the gte oil filter housing however. ( Modified)

Then added a secondary small oil pump to feed the oil cooler. This is fed directly from the pan using some extra fittings I installed as well as an aftermarket temp sensor.

True, though I am not comparing those two.
I am comparing a full flow external style cooler to my modified stock oil filter housing w/ custom separate oil cooler loop.

Looks like you were to me.

 

[Enraged]

One of the things I've found frustrating is the number of connections required when remote mounting the filter and adding a thermostat.

Luckily there are a few options, Improved Racing http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-c...n-oil-filter-mount-with-thermostat-p-781.html and Greddy https://frsport.com/GReddy-12401114-Remote-Oil-Filter-Relocation-with-Thermostat_p_12814.html

Both have a remote filter mount with a built in thermostat. When you add up the price of a filter mount, a separate thermostat, all the fittings, plus the frustration/labor required, one of these is actually a decent deal.

 

[suprarx7nut]

One of the things I've found frustrating is the number of connections required when remote mounting the filter and adding a thermostat.

Luckily there are a few options, Improved Racing http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-c...n-oil-filter-mount-with-thermostat-p-781.html and Greddy https://frsport.com/GReddy-12401114-Remote-Oil-Filter-Relocation-with-Thermostat_p_12814.html

Both have a remote filter mount with a built in thermostat. When you add up the price of a filter mount, a separate thermostat, all the fittings, plus the frustration/labor required, one of these is actually a decent deal.

That's pretty neat, thanks for the links. Reducing the number of fittings in that circuit is well worth a premium in my mind. Now I just wish there was an option to combine the block adapter into that assembly as well so you have zero flow through any connections or lines when cold. That'd drop you down to one set of lines to the cooler and that's it. Not sure such a thing exists, but it'd be nice!

 

[Enraged]

You would need to run a sandwich plate style thermostat, and then a remote filter mount, so no, not really reducing anything.

 

[suprarx7nut]

You would need to run a sandwich plate style thermostat, and then a remote filter mount, so no, not really reducing anything.

I'm saying I'd like to have an assembly that functions as a sandwhich plate adapter with a built in thermostat and filter mount - all in one "block".

I agree with the remote filter mount you wouldn't eliminate anything.

 

[Piratetip]

Looks like you were to me.

Sequence of posts in the thread:

Post #8
I describe the modified stock system I designed and built.

I had the "full flow " oil cooler route for some time. After weighing the pros and cons of that system I decided to totally ditch it. I now run a modified stock system w/ an entirely custom oil cooler setup, which is on it's own loop and separate pump.

After a deep study of the stock system and it's components I kept the best and ditched the rest.
Primarily completely disabling the stock oil cooler and replacing with one of my own design.

Post #10
simond355 asks for more information.

Explain me the pros and cons please, and what did you do and why?

Post #11
I give a quick overview of the pros / cons of the stock system vs full flow.
I then describe the steps I have taken to correct for some of the cons / flaws in the stock system.
It makes little sense to describe what I have modified without knowing why it was an issue in the first place.

I'll try to summarize quickly.

Stock oil filter housing/cooler
Pro - good packaging / compact
- low component count / potential external failure points.
- shortest oil path to feed the engine (lowest pumping losses)
- no expandable components ( soft lines)

Con - pressure based cooler bleeds off a small portion of the oil feed to the engine.
- small(er) orifices at critical junctions / connections / banjo bolts

Full Flow System
Pro - fully integrated oil filter / cooler and thermostat in one
- all flow from the oil pump feeds the engine ( none bled off to be cooled and drained back to the pan)

Con - large number of external connections and components. If any one of these fails your engine looses pressure and boom metal glitter in your pan
- 5 ft + of external soft lines (SSN or Teflon shrouded ect..) the oil pump must push through before going back to the engine
- higher pumping losses
- increased weight and component count

There are probably other points I am forgetting ATM.

So I kept the stock system and corrected the cons list as well as totally eliminated the pressure bleed off oil cooler system.
I still utilize the gte oil filter housing however. ( Modified)

Then added a secondary small oil pump to feed the oil cooler. This is fed directly from the pan using some extra fittings I installed as well as an aftermarket temp sensor.

Post #16
I give more details on the modifications.

Yeah external mounted, just 3 extra fittings on the pan.
1 feed, 1 return and 1 for the temp sensor.

So what would be the thought process behind telling me I am only comparing the stock bleeder style to the full flow system?

versus the stock bleeder style cooler which has a far greater loss of pressure than a few feet of line.

True, though I am not comparing those two.
I am comparing a full flow external style cooler to my modified stock oil filter housing w/ custom separate oil cooler loop.

Looks like you were to me.

 

[Old Radar]

Sequence of posts in the thread:

Post #8
Post #10
Post #11
Post #16
Post, Post, Post.

And people think I'm anal!!:aigo: :biglaugh:

 

[tissimo]

So what would be the thought process behind telling me I am only comparing the stock bleeder style to the full flow system?

Your Pro-cons list for full flow vs stock system then expanding on the loss of pressure through the lines. I commented my thoughts on it. I couldn't care less about your specific setup, just commenting regarding the stock vs full flow. If you want input on your setup I can add that if you wish.

 

[Piratetip]

If you want input on your setup I can add that if you wish.

Sure why not, everyone has their own viewpoints.
I will gladly like to hear everyone's custom setup with the data to back it up.
As an engineer I cannot rely on anecdotal evidence, there needs to be measured or modeled data provided as proof.

Though I am not entirely sure why you would want to?
You just said you could care less about my setup then in the next sentence offered to weigh in your input.

Just do us all a favor and leave the resentment off the table.
My ultimate goal is creating the best designed systems and sub systems with a heavy emphasis on long term longevity, reliability and robustness.
If anyone has better ideas than mine I am more than happy to hear them.