500whp Reliable for Under 5g's?

[tissimo]

Since a lot of people are too lazy to follow a link:



I've owned & managed a shop. I've been a professional racer & crew chief. I've built everything from ProStreet Domestics, to professional race cars, to heavily modded street Supras. That's about 27 years worth of experience modifying cars speaking, your mileage may vary, but I seriously doubt it.

You're link is pretty worthless in this discussion though. Yea brakes and suspension should be addressed first, but this isn't about someones car build plans, its about a 500whp reliable engine for 5k. A well set out plan and you can easily plan for 90% of all expenses of the engine build.

 

[RacerXJ220]

Get methanol injection. Make your 500rwhp reliably.

car parts dot com has good price on Boost Juice 50/50 mix. $61.xx total shipped to my door for two cases (8 gallons). That to me, is a lot for the money.

Just because you make that much power doesn't mean you will want to drive like that all the time. You shouldn't anyway. I drive around on low boost in the high 3XXrwhp range, which is all I need for 90% of the cars I encounter daily. I don't like driving around with more than 500rwhp unless I am racing. By the time I get the turbo into boost, the rate of accelleration will get me into trouble. I use the high setting for the other 7% of cars out there (my guess)

Either way, meth/water injection should improve reliability by lowering combustion and exhaust gas temperatures. Heat causes most of the stress outside of substantial power levels anyway IMO (over 630-650rwhp). Keep everything in check and optimal for the conditions at those levels, and expect the worst.

If you turn it up for the weekend or two, that's not bad IMO. It all depends on how you treat the car at those levels, and how often you put the motor through that stress.

 

[Supracentral]

You're link is pretty worthless in this discussion though. Yea brakes and suspension should be addressed first, but this isn't about someones car build plans, its about a 500whp reliable engine for 5k. A well set out plan and you can easily plan for 90% of all expenses of the engine build.

I beg to differ. While these hypothetical questions are fine, if people come in here, read this stuff and decide they can do it for $5k. That's a problem. I'm making sure that they understand that this hypothetical project won't work in the real world. My point is that the basic premise is flawed. A 500 RWHP motor on stock suspension & stock brakes is a threat to the lives of every single person it drives around. This is not a game, this is a 3500+ lb ball of death hurtling down the road. I hate it when this hobby develops a body count, because the rest of us pay the price for it while the dead idiot takes a dirt nap. So I'll just keep on posting my "worthless" posts, and you can do whatever the fuck you want...

With that said, $5K for 500 reliable horsepower is an oxymoron. He may do it for 5K, it's not going to be reliable, or safe. People who cut corners, cut corners, and always pay for it in reliability, safety or both. I guess it also depends on your definition of "reliable" - I tend to run my motors well over 100,000 miles between rebuilds, sometimes far longer. (The hardtop MKIV is at 189,000+ miles right now). Maybe your definition of reliable differs from mine.

 

[Gritz]

I beg to differ. While these hypothetical questions are fine, if people come in here, read this stuff and decide they can do it for $5k. That's a problem. I'm making sure that they understand that this hypothetical project won't work in the real world. My point is that the basic premise is flawed. A 500 RWHP motor on stock suspension & stock brakes is a threat to the lives of every single person it drives around. This is not a game, this is a 3500+ lb ball of death hurtling down the road. I hate it when this hobby develops a body count, because the rest of us pay the price for it while the dead idiot takes a dirt nap. So I'll just keep on posting my "worthless" posts, and you can do whatever the fuck you want...

With that said, $5K for 500 reliable horsepower is an oxymoron. He may do it for 5K, it's not going to be reliable, or safe. People who cut corners, cut corners, and always pay for it in reliability, safety or both. I guess it also depends on your definition of "reliable" - I tend to run my motors well over 100,000 miles between rebuilds, sometimes far longer. (The hardtop MKIV is at 189,000+ miles right now). Maybe your definition of reliable differs from mine.

I understand your place here on the forums so your post was very justified, no problems here. My definition of reliable is " safety" daily driven with no major problems and maybe twice a month blasting down the strip. Or taking a 300-400 mile trip with out problems... I believe i can blow any motor no matter the budget if i wanted to...Im taking within reason expectations, which i know can mean many things to different people, for me driving like a maniac on the street is not an option. Spending everyday at the track is also something i don't do..

I apologize for not stating the importance of a well balanced car. So with that said assuming your car is set up to handle the power $5000 in the engine alone should go a long way.. So im with tissimo on that one. For example i made my own IC piping and exhaust from 2.5in/3in mandrel bends and straights for under $200..(no cat, with only a 3in resenator..lol my car is 1974 so by law i don't have run a cat ..N.C.)

So sum up i think if you have to build your engine it's not possible; however if you have a solid engine to begin with 500 for $5000 should be.

Just my opinion, i haven't done it yet so take what i say with a grain of salt. lol.

 

[Supracentral]

So sum up i think if you have to build your engine it's not possible; however if you have a solid engine to begin with 500 for $5000 should be.

Just my opinion, i haven't done it yet so take what i say with a grain of salt. lol.

Reliable power is a lot harder to achieve than a lot of people think. Also, the majority of cars (and remember I did this professionally) come in on a dyno day on an empty tank throw in 5 gallons of C-16, wick up the boost on a ragged edge 12.5:1 tune and lay down a number, the owner then posts this up on the web proudly announcing his 550 rwhp daily driver. What they usually fail to tell you is that once that tank of C-16 is gone, the boost goes back down, the sane tune goes back on and the car puts out 380 at the wheels and that's what they are daily driving.

500, reliable, daily driven horses is a tougher goal. Not all that hard to do on a 2JZ with a big single turbo (Hell an oldschool Turbonetics T-66 will make 470 at the wheels on 1 BAR wastegate and 93 octane pump gas), but it's a bit of a lag monster and really no damned fun to drive in traffic. By the time you get the turbo, the manifold, the wastegate, exhaust, fuel, intercooler, engine & boost management worked out, you're going to be hard pressed to keep that under 5K provided you aren't buying cheap ebay crap and you're trying to do it right. (We did say reliable is the goal, right?)

My modded motors LAST. A long time, sometimes insanely long. Certainly lot longer than a lot of stock cars do. I overbuild, I know and admit this, and I generally clearly state it when giving people recommendations. But that overbuilding is part of having a margin for error. I'm also almost psychotic about maintenance, my oil gets tested with a TBN on every change, I don't wait for hoses and belts to wear out, I re-torque things on a regular basis. Is $5K doable? Probably. Is is realistic for the average guy? Probably not. You're going to have to cut some corners, and those corners tend to poke you in the eye later on.

Consider me this thread's pessimist, someone else can play the optimist - the truth is probably closer to somewhere between the two.

 

[GrimJack]

Another bit to add to the pile.

Consider this: my 2J car runs 540 rwhp daily. What fuel does that require? Well, you could probably do it with 550cc injectors, if you ran a lot of pressure, and were willing to run it on the ragged edge. What do I actually have? 890cc injectors, AND a water / meth injection system. And a fuel pump that's a lot more capable than a 255lph Walbro, for that matter.

Cost for the cheap method:
Injectors: 6 @ $100
Pump: 1 @ $100
Total: $700

Cost for the reliable method:
Injectors: 6 @ $100
Pump: 1 @ 400
Water / Meth kit: 1 @ 400
Total: $1400

 

[tissimo]

Reliable is the same for everyone, I think. Run that power any time you like without breaking anything.

Also,just to clarify my posts are not saying you'll run 500whp on pump gas with the setup I listed. I'm saying put some race gas in turn up the boost and reach your 500whp. A daily 500whp on pump gas will take a lot more with a 1jz.

 

[Gritz]

Reliable is the same for everyone, I think. Run that power any time you like without breaking anything.

Also,just to clarify my posts are not saying you'll run 500whp on pump gas with the setup I listed. I'm saying put some race gas in turn up the boost and reach your 500whp. A daily 500whp on pump gas will take a lot more with a 1jz.

Which is the reason i set my own goal @ 400whp for my 1jz.. 400whp @ 2700lb w/driver will be fast enough...

 

[IJ.]

My 7M was a genuine daily 500rwhp engine, it took me quite a few years and a whole pileOcash to get it there, it wasn't a dyno queen with an alternate tune and race fuel to produce that number it did it on pump fuel.

I had the budget available to develop the engine through quite a few failures after following the accepted wisdom of forum members before going back to my roots and building the engine just like any high performance engine I've built in the last 25+ years.

If someone is advising you on this make sure they have actually achieved the desired result before taking their advice seriously there are so many benchracers here it's a joke.

 

[Evilempire1.3JZ-GTE]

I know it's not recommended, but can a 1j or 2j make 500hp without cams?

Yes but you are better off trying to make the power on the top end with a rev happy car you will need cams if you want more of that usable 500hp in the 6500+ rpm range.
It is doable with factory cams, this asumming you upgrade everything else upgradable and tuned right.
You can buy a cheap set of mkiv cams $60-100 +100 machining and get 264s in your 1jz
Now the 2JZ can make the power easier on the base setup because the extra displacement.
So on the 2jz you get a slight better headstart & a little better low end torque.
I perfer the 1JZ though its a little more responsive to mods revs higher more predictable when it comes to drifting & could meet your goals up to 800hp

 

[Gritz]

Yes but you are better off trying to make the power on the top end with a rev happy car you will need cams if you want more of that usable 500hp in the 6500+ rpm range.
It is doable with factory cams, this asumming you upgrade everything else upgradable and tuned right.
You can buy a cheap set of mkiv cams $60-100 +100 machining and get 264s in your 1jz
Now the 2JZ can make the power easier on the base setup because the extra displacement.
So on the 2jz you get a slight better headstart & a little better low end torque.
I perfer the 1JZ though its a little more responsive to mods revs higher more predictable when it comes to drifting & could meet your goals up to 800hp

The higher you rev the chances of breaking something are higher correct? Also i wonder how a stock cammed 1jz at 500 would feel? With the turbo tech thats out these days, dual BB 6262 billet for example, should make the power low in the rpm range..Theres a youtube video of a guy just blowing in the front of this particular turbo and the blades are spinning. That is a $1200 turbo though..

 

[Evilempire1.3JZ-GTE]

Higher you rev the chances increase YES, but if you have an under built, unbalanced, unreliable, weak tolernace, cast metal, high millage engine (highmillage to a JZ is 400,000+) everything that isnt a JZ.

Also remember the pistons on a 1jz travel 17% slower then the 2JZs and 22% slower then the 7Ms rpm per rpm.

 

[IfetheGreat]

This is a really great read

 

[IBoughtASupra]

Overbuild your engine. We built a 7M this way.

Engine

-7M-GTE
-.20 Probe Forged Pistons
-Forged Eagle Rods
-Clevite Bearing All Throughout
-ARP Hardware
-Port And Polished Head With New Valve Seals And Reseated Valves
-Comp Cam Springs
-BC 264 Cams

Intercooler
-Spearco Intercooler
-2.75 Aluminum Hard Pipes
-HKS Blow Off Valve

Fuel
-Triple Walbros
-AFRP
-Denso 720cc
-All Lines Replaced With AN Lines From Tank.

Cooling
-Mishimoto
-Flex-A-Lite Fans, Thermostat Controlled
-Heat Wrapped To Keep Engine Bay Temperatures Down

Oil
-New Oil Pump
-AZN Oil Pipe (No Stupid Bends)
-Full Flow Thermostat Controlled Oil Cooling System (JDub)

Turbo? Okay, take a shot

......CT26...57 trim at 10lbs.

Electronics
-AEM EMS
-Speed Density
-AEM Boost Control
-Wired For Sequential Injection
-2JZ-GE Coils

All of those mods that can run a nice T4 setup but we did a CT26. I don't know how much power the car makes because we never dynoed it. All I can say, that car will last because it is extremely overbuilt for the power it is pushing.

Just a question, how much do you guys think this car is pushing?

 

[tissimo]

Triple walbros on 720 injectors. :rofl:

 

[IBoughtASupra]

I know, the customer did not want to do the Areomotive A1000. They made a custom hanger and took that route. I don't know why, if anything, that would be the cheap thing on that car. Been a while since I have seen it but the guy still comes to the shop during the week for the oil changes but I am at school, only work on the weekend. :-/

 

[Evilempire1.3JZ-GTE]

The aeromotive is quiter cheaper simpler and draws less current then 3 walbros what are these guys thinking just keep adding pumps? why not put 5 OEM supra pumps on the hanger lol?

 

[Dylan JZ]

I don't think that's why tissimo was laughing.. lol

 

[IBoughtASupra]

Not my car, just one that a customer had us put together. 550CC would be enough for the 10lbs on the CT but he wanted a lot of head room. He said the A1000 and a fuel cell setup was too much. I have no clue why since he spent so much money already.

 

[twin2turbo]

it would be pretty close but i think 5k would be minimal