1jz water to air and 6265 question
- Thread starter 88supraTT
- Start date
It's cool to see something different. If I was building a strictly race project that will not see high speeds, I would go water/air.
I'm used to using the spearco type (not being from australia).
My old all trac had one, with a water tank in the back. It would hold ice during drag runs, I think a 5 gallon cell. Look for a ford cobra heat exchanger, or there are plenty of cheap ones on ebay.
If done properly, you can actually have intake temperatures that are LOWER than ambient air.
I'm used to using the spearco type (not being from australia).
My old all trac had one, with a water tank in the back. It would hold ice during drag runs, I think a 5 gallon cell. Look for a ford cobra heat exchanger, or there are plenty of cheap ones on ebay.
If done properly, you can actually have intake temperatures that are LOWER than ambient air.
I'm just about done with the setup, ordered a cobra heat exchanger and water pump. I changed a little because the radiator was too close to the ground for comfort so my friend had a idea and i let him run with it, I'm hoping its not gonna get affected by engine heat too bad in the location it is in now, I'm hoping that forcing cooled water through it at all time will take care of most of the problem. but it looks cool 
and thats what matters anyways :naughty:
its almost done, just need to get the piping ends cut off the cooler and retigged and make a reservoir and finish the little stuff.
and thats what matters anyways :naughty:
its almost done, just need to get the piping ends cut off the cooler and retigged and make a reservoir and finish the little stuff.
88supraTT;1283197 said:
Just wrap it in thermal wrap. Also make sure that the air is forced though the radiator and isn't allowed to run around it. Since the top of the radiator tank is lower now you will probably need a remote radiator cap to mount at the high point in the system so that it can purge all of the air.
If you make it work you'll have one of the shortest intake tracts out there.
yesIJ.;1283455 said:
I really haven't thought about a horse power goal just yet, I would like to peak some were in the 650 to 700 hp range as a peak, and run 550 to 600hp during racing applications, I'm just having a hard time on picking a turbocharger that can do it the best, don't want a lot of lag but some is unavoidable, and its also hard to decide on which turbo, because there are so many turbochargers available. I want to make this car a little overkill so that way i'm not stressing the parts so hard. I also only want to build the car onceIJ.;1283455 said:
IJ.;1283798 said:
website rates it a 650hp? I know there is a 1.1psi lost per 7psi hence why i want a turbo that can peak a little more then my goal so its not a hair drier. so when running at 550 to 600 its at its max efficiency or close to it. Please explain, I don't understand and or missing some key information.
650 crank....
Mine fell flat on it's face around the 480rwhp mark and wouldn't make anymore power even pushing 30 psi through it, it made 550rwhp at 24psi with a 4" A2A.
Mine fell flat on it's face around the 480rwhp mark and wouldn't make anymore power even pushing 30 psi through it, it made 550rwhp at 24psi with a 4" A2A.
crap..back to the drawing board; this will work for factory twins I guess. I'm using my number assumptions based on crank, I didn't think there was that much of a loss between the crank and the wheels. could you figure out why you could not build anymore power? restriction of air? high intake temps?
thanks for heads up with information, least i know what i have to get done this winter.
thanks for heads up with information, least i know what i have to get done this winter.
Restriction and the temp was getting a little high (60c+ from memory)
And this was on a cold day.
I would had to have stepped up to an 8" kit to go any higher and in a Mk3 it wasn't happening.
And this was on a cold day.
I would had to have stepped up to an 8" kit to go any higher and in a Mk3 it wasn't happening.
IJ.;1283854 said:
k, i'll keep note of watching the intake temps with the twins when i dyno it, I may have to get a 8" kit because its not that much bigger then the 6", just price of it is a little to high for a cooler, being a rx7 i don't have a big front end to fit a big 4" A2A, may just bite the bullet and keep my eyes on the look out for a used one or do the larger ones have the same issues?
thanks
cameron
k, guess I'll be looking for a larger one, think i could band aid the problem with meth injection for the time being or not to even bother with it? Granted it doesn't fix both the problems but maybe i can get rid of some of it.
do you remember your engine specs and a data printout/datalog from when you were on the dyno with it?
I'm gonna snag my brother's 3" ebay A2A cooler and make a cardboard 4" version and see if i can get it to fit tomorrow sometime. this is becoming a small cluster @#$K
do you remember your engine specs and a data printout/datalog from when you were on the dyno with it?
I'm gonna snag my brother's 3" ebay A2A cooler and make a cardboard 4" version and see if i can get it to fit tomorrow sometime. this is becoming a small cluster @#$K
LOL I know exactly what you mean by it being a CF... I got stitched up twice before going back to A2A.
If you keep it under 500rwhp it should work fine just remember that anything that puts heat into the system will cost you power.. ie: Barrel in the engine bay.
If you keep it under 500rwhp it should work fine just remember that anything that puts heat into the system will cost you power.. ie: Barrel in the engine bay.
IJ.;1283838 said:
That's impressive considering that you did it with a turbo that was only rated to flow enough air to make 600hp at the crank.
88supraTT;1283851 said:
The problem wasn't just drivetrain loss, but the fact that PWR pulled the number 650hp out of their ass. There is no way that anything with that small of a flow area can flow enough air to support 650 horses. I know that they can cram more tubes in a given space because it's water cooled and I know that they used extruded aluminum tubes with no fins to disrupt the flow. That doesn't mean that they can cut the area required compared to a normal intercooler in half.
Let's compare the core area at the entrance of Ian's two intercoolers. If the tubes completely filled the 6 inch tube (they don't), it would be 3 squared * pi = 28.27 square inches. Now with the A2A it would be the height times the thickness. If it's a foot tall then it would be 12 * 4 = 48 square inches or roughly 70% larger. Does the A2W core flow so much better than the A2A core that it only needs 59% as much area to do it. According to the laws of physics it's not possible.
In every piece of engineering that I can think of, if the goal was to maximize flow area in a given amount of space, square or rectangular shaped ports, tube, pipe, etc. were used. Round areas were only used if trying to maximize area with the least amount of surface area. Considering that the whole purpose of an intercooler is to transfer thermal energy through as much surface area as possible in a given space, just like a radiator, no intercooler (A2A or A2W) should be round. Given that it lacks internal fins and has very little area to transfer heat to the water I doubt that your "650 hp" intercooler could properly cool anything over 500 hp at the crank.
sweet, more reasons to hate on pwr right now,false advertising for the win. anyways lesson learned. Should have just went A2A, W2A cost is alot higher and final result in this case blows, I guess for stock turbocharged cars this would be a good option, but in any other case it will not work.
on another note if i can buy a larger W2A cooler that is a rectangle shape and is larger, I should be okay. I really don't want to venture to much farther with this until I get a larger turbocharger and see what I'm limited to.
for now this should work for factory twins with cams(buying close to fall), and will be fun to mess around with, but won't yield the power goal i was aiming for. :cry:
and my other shoulder thinks this,
some of the numbers really can't compare due to the effecncy and amount of energy water absorbs compared to air, I'm not gonna take the time and dig through the internet and attempt to find the text book number. But comparing your sizes to air cooled to air cooled ,yes the smaller one is weaker, but I don't know how much heat water can abosrb but i'm not going to say it 70 percent more but it will be more than that of air.
The total volume of the "650 horse power cooler made by pwr" is 28.27"x10 length is 282.70 cubic inches" and the A2A is 12x4x24(general ebay cooler size) is 1152 cubic inches, the a2a has to be much bigger because that is how it cools the intake charge with air that has to rush through it, vs the liquid cooler you are forcing water through the system which is why you need a high volume system and needs to have a heat exchanger,pump, cooler,and a reservoir this is why i have to have a minumim of a 2 gallon system to allow for effective cooling, this also depends on your pump, which is why a dayton bump was suggest over the cobra pump earlier on. The more water you shove through the cooler and faster makes it round trip; it makes it much more effective in cooling the charged water and your intake temps.
If your saying IJ's turbo could not produce the power it did being it can flow the air meant for 600 hp at the crank then he would be pumping alot of hot air, driving his intake/ liquid cooler temps sky rocketing. this is why i want a turbo that is in its efficiency range not at its peak flow amount of air. with the turbocharger pushing hot air that is higher then normal The cooler would not be able to handle the heat transfer rate like A2A, because the water cooler can only adsorb so much heat because of its amount of water stored in the system before it is heat saturated, the A2A is greatly helped by having a big fan blowing on it all the time during the runs, the liquid cooler's heat exchanger does too, but it is generally much smaller and the fan will not get the system cooled down near as effectively as it would a A2A.
this mainly focuses on temps not flow
liquid coolers are generally used in short burst/ high horse power drag racing ventures and not air to air, you can just drain the heat saturated water from the car and restore with chilled water and run the vehicle again with low temps, while the A2A will be only cooling as fast as you can put air through down to ambient temperature(unless a chemical is sprayed onto the cooler).
more then likely I'll be putting a foot in my mouth after this, entil I can actually play with the system so I don't get into a massive what if and would have should of internet is series business fight, but this will help other thinking about going liquid to air vs air to air, but with every advantage comes a disadvantage. I'll hopefully, fingers crossed I'll be driving the car this weekend, and dyno time maybe in the next week or two.
sorry for grammer mistakes but nobody is perfect
cameron
on another note if i can buy a larger W2A cooler that is a rectangle shape and is larger, I should be okay. I really don't want to venture to much farther with this until I get a larger turbocharger and see what I'm limited to.
for now this should work for factory twins with cams(buying close to fall), and will be fun to mess around with, but won't yield the power goal i was aiming for. :cry:
and my other shoulder thinks this,
some of the numbers really can't compare due to the effecncy and amount of energy water absorbs compared to air, I'm not gonna take the time and dig through the internet and attempt to find the text book number. But comparing your sizes to air cooled to air cooled ,yes the smaller one is weaker, but I don't know how much heat water can abosrb but i'm not going to say it 70 percent more but it will be more than that of air.
The total volume of the "650 horse power cooler made by pwr" is 28.27"x10 length is 282.70 cubic inches" and the A2A is 12x4x24(general ebay cooler size) is 1152 cubic inches, the a2a has to be much bigger because that is how it cools the intake charge with air that has to rush through it, vs the liquid cooler you are forcing water through the system which is why you need a high volume system and needs to have a heat exchanger,pump, cooler,and a reservoir this is why i have to have a minumim of a 2 gallon system to allow for effective cooling, this also depends on your pump, which is why a dayton bump was suggest over the cobra pump earlier on. The more water you shove through the cooler and faster makes it round trip; it makes it much more effective in cooling the charged water and your intake temps.
If your saying IJ's turbo could not produce the power it did being it can flow the air meant for 600 hp at the crank then he would be pumping alot of hot air, driving his intake/ liquid cooler temps sky rocketing. this is why i want a turbo that is in its efficiency range not at its peak flow amount of air. with the turbocharger pushing hot air that is higher then normal The cooler would not be able to handle the heat transfer rate like A2A, because the water cooler can only adsorb so much heat because of its amount of water stored in the system before it is heat saturated, the A2A is greatly helped by having a big fan blowing on it all the time during the runs, the liquid cooler's heat exchanger does too, but it is generally much smaller and the fan will not get the system cooled down near as effectively as it would a A2A.
this mainly focuses on temps not flow
liquid coolers are generally used in short burst/ high horse power drag racing ventures and not air to air, you can just drain the heat saturated water from the car and restore with chilled water and run the vehicle again with low temps, while the A2A will be only cooling as fast as you can put air through down to ambient temperature(unless a chemical is sprayed onto the cooler).
more then likely I'll be putting a foot in my mouth after this, entil I can actually play with the system so I don't get into a massive what if and would have should of internet is series business fight, but this will help other thinking about going liquid to air vs air to air, but with every advantage comes a disadvantage. I'll hopefully, fingers crossed I'll be driving the car this weekend, and dyno time maybe in the next week or two.
sorry for grammer mistakes but nobody is perfect
cameron
An active W2A is fine in any situation and is more than equal to the A2A
(active ie: Pump, Radiator and Fan)
In stop/start boosting one will kick an A2A's butt, sustained high speed driving they're both line ball, A2A wins weight wise and minimal complexity.
(active ie: Pump, Radiator and Fan)
In stop/start boosting one will kick an A2A's butt, sustained high speed driving they're both line ball, A2A wins weight wise and minimal complexity.