Weird timing issue.........Please help

[ForcedTorque]

I have been having all types of timing issues with my motor ever since I put it in this car. I decided I am going to fix it all this time or not drive it any more. I have searched quite a bit as I have never completely done the timing on a motor, even though I have played with all of these parts enough to feel confident with the help of SM.

Well, I have tried several different methods with no luck. What I have does not look right at all. I have everything as right as I think I can get it, but look at my cam gears. I tried it a couple of times while having a brain fart, and thinking the cam lobe was showing TDC. That was due to the lower pic on this page:

http://cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/IG/IG_021.gif

I tried aligning the CPS both with the cam gears on the marks, or with the cam lobe in the up position. I do think I was not on the right stroke when I did that, so I pulled it all back apart, and started over. Now I have the #1 piston at TDC, the cam lobe up, both gears with dowels in the center holes (they weren't before) both on the gears and the cams, Crank Dampner at 0, the CPS installed, and aligned with the rotor right on the sensor. The only problem is the gears are at about 2 o'clock. My question is, do I just straighten them up and not worry about the cam lobe? Or is something wrong here?

Here's the best pictures I could get.

I want to just go straighten them to the marks, and put the timing belt back on it. But, I'd much rather have a little back up before I mess all of everything else back up.

Here's one more pic of what I found when I finally pulled the plug out of #1. I'm assuming that's a timing issue. Could it have done any damage? I read during my search that this was a non interference motor, meaning that it was impossible for the piton and valves to come into contact.

 

[Facime]

the cam lobe method of timing the CPS is a completely different operation than crank/cam timing. Ignore the CPS for now. Remember, the CPS doesnt signal the plug to fire at TDC.

do the following:
#1 piston TDC via a dowel in the sparkplug hole, confirm the crank pully is at 0* then line the cams up with the marks on the timing cover. Install timing belt and torque the tensioner. Mechanical timing, done.

NOW, align the cam lobe and CPS as per TSRM. Jumper diag, start and adjust timing to 10* via timing light.

Thats all you need to do.


That plug is scary! Im having a hard time imagining the course of events that caused that. Is it possible that it was dropped before installation and the electrode was bent the whole time?

 

[IJ.]

There isn't a motor on the planet that the piston can contact the sparkplug under any condition other than mechanical failure

 

[ForcedTorque]

That plug is scary! Im having a hard time imagining the course of events that caused that. Is it possible that it was dropped before installation and the electrode was bent the whole time?

I guess that's possible, but I really don't think I did that. I have boosted 7-8 pounds on the bad timing a time or two.

There isn't a motor on the planet that the piston can contact the sparkplug under any condition other than mechanical failure

Bad timing = mechanical failure? Or do I have other things to worry about?

 

[Orion ZyGarian]

I'm pretty certain it was simply dropped before going in the engine. Its pretty easy to do and go unnoticed.

 

[suprahero]

Scott, that does look horrible, but hopefully nothing is broke. I've never seen a sparkplug get hit that hard, but I don't think for a second you dropped it and didn't realize it, and I doubt it was done before hand because I'm sure you gapped them right before you installed them. Good luck brother.

 

[cuel]

Your cam gear is on the cam correctly(don't forget the bolt, and torque it to spec. Be sure you check it again before you put the cover on).

I agree with Facime's answer for the timing.

Not the first time I've seen a plug like that, either. Make sure the rubber in your socket is holding the plug tightly, and not letting it drop in the hole.

 

[IJ.]

I guess that's possible, but I really don't think I did that. I have boosted 7-8 pounds on the bad timing a time or two.



Bad timing = mechanical failure? Or do I have other things to worry about?

Nope there's no way the Piston can hit the plug fullstop.

Unless either
a) wrong plug
b) a dead rod bearing

 

[jdub]

Scott - Once you have the cam timing sorted per what Facime posted, make sure the CPS looks like this installed:



Remember the CPS engages a helical gear...it will turn as it's inserted.

 

[ForcedTorque]

John, I thought you were to set it up like that before install to get it lined up right once installed? I got it all put back together and put it in like that, which spun the rotor to dead on the sensor. The car started right up, but wouldn't rev past about 1200 rpm. I came back in disgusted, and checked for any other answers. I'll report back after I go try again.

 

[IJ.]

Scott: Have you checked that TDC on the damper is actually TDC?

 

[suprabad]

Nope there's no way the Piston can hit the plug fullstop.

Unless either
a) wrong plug
b) a dead rod bearing

+1

There is no way short of catastrophic mechanical failure that it could even make contact with a valve (non interference), much less a spark plug. You must have dropped the plug or bumped it or something.

 

[jdub]

John, I thought you were to set it up like that before install to get it lined up right once installed? I got it all put back together and put it in like that, which spun the rotor to dead on the sensor. The car started right up, but wouldn't rev past about 1200 rpm. I came back in disgusted, and checked for any other answers. I'll report back after I go try again.

Nope...line up the damper and cam pulleys 1st. Make sure you are at TDC like Ian said with the damper pointed at zero. This is the wooden dowel trick (Ian uses a chopstick)...put a long one in the #1 spark plug hole and rotate the damper noting where the dowel "tops out". There will be a bit of damper rotation with the dowel at the top...estimate the middle and that's good enough.

It does need to be very close to zero though. If not, you may have a damper that's twisted the rubber inside.

 

[ForcedTorque]

I tried again with no luck. I didn't verify TDC through the piston, so I must have been on the wrong stroke. Dampner is at zero when I am at TDC though. It just past 10pm here so I gave up for the night. It was weird when I cane in. There were what I thought were owls on the trees in the yards on both sides of me calling out to each other............or was it vulchers circling their prey? I left the poor dead thing out in the yard.:wtc:

 

[jdub]

Scott - the only way to be sure you are at TDC is to check the #1 piston is all the way up. If you don't and the damper is FUBAR, you will have all sort of timing problems. The damper pointing at zero is not a positive indication the piston is at DTC.

 

[AJ'S 88NA]

A lot of guys forget to rotate the motor a couple of revolutions by hand after installing the timing belt, then check to make sure all the marks line up again, cam gears, crank pulley, etc.

 

[ForcedTorque]

Scott - the only way to be sure you are at TDC is to check the #1 piston is all the way up. If you don't and the damper is FUBAR, you will have all sort of timing problems. The damper pointing at zero is not a positive indication the piston is at DTC.

I know! Was just rushing because I have seniors living on all sides of me. One of which is having brain surgery tomorrow. Tomorrow is the weekend, so I will have plenty of time (weather permitting) to get it right. I thank you guys for the help.

 

[ForcedTorque]

Thank you again for all of the help. I came home after work, and tried to quickly get the motor to TDC before having to leave for tonights football game where my son was playing a couple of solos in the halftime show. Once I got the cam gears lined up, I pulled the plug, and found I was on the right stroke the first time. I then checked the CPS, and it was dead on. I tried to start it with no luck, so I then checked fuel pressure. It was good, so I tried to jump it off thinking the battery may not quite have enough after all the attempts. Still no luck, so I had to check the motor for things I may have left off. It ended up being the plug on the CPS. So, I actually had it timed right last night. I will have to do the timing light fine tuning tomorrow.

The car is SOOO much better already. I drove it around the block in the neighborhood. I'm going out in a little bit to see what it is like with a little boost.

 

[Slow66]

You really cant have it on the wrong stroke.... If the #1 piston is at TDC, and the cams are lined straight up, its always on the right stroke. But job well done

 

[suprahero]

Good to hear Scott...........:eek3dance


Brian, we live in an alternate universe called the south. It is possible for us to be on the wrong stroke..........:aigo: