Want to Destroy!!! Not really... need help

fc3swrx

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Jan 25, 2006
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OK... so I help a buddy out and buy his car, (I figured I would add to my collection)

Anyway, he had someone put a clutch in it and break the exhaust... He couldn't get it back to gather cheap so I got it...


Anyway, In the 2-3 miles I've driven the car I really like it.

But after getting the brand new turbo back exhaust on and intake the thing started making a noise, A friend said to check the crank pulley and sure enough it was wobling.. I spent a lot of time searching this forum and I'm a little confused as to what I'm looking at.

When I look at the crank pulley all I see is threads down the shaft. I do not see a Bolt or anything... Did it come loose and I'm just lucky the thing didn't completely fly apart?

I saw that the key would need replacing and maybe the dampner. If I have to do that what's the best solution? Money not really a problem I suppose but I do have other projects. lol

Being that this is my first post please don't flame me, I did search for about 30 minutes, but the bolt missing thing kinda threw me for a loop. I don't see how it's even working.



thanks in advance...



1987 Silver Supra Targa turbo (blue interior):cry:
1988 Silver TurboII (Microtech TO4B):icon_conf
2002 Red WRX 290AWHP (Link44s) :icon_bigg
2003 Black 10th anni Cobra (475whp/490tq):icon_evil

1992 Chevy Subruban 4x4 3"lift
2005 HD F250 (400hp/700+tq):evil2:

1999 Banshee:icon_evil
2001 Blaster
2001 KX250
2005 250 buggy (2 seater)
 

shaeff

Kurt is FTMFW x2!!!!
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if you see threads, then the crank pulley bolt has fallen off. get a new key, possibly crank pulley if it's damaged, and make sure the crank isn't FUBR. if the crank is good, you can get away with just a key and maybe a pulley. it's supposed to be torqued down to 195 ft lbs if i remember right...

you're very lucky it didn't fly apart. :( i would go with a stock pulley.

-shaeff
 

suprahero

naughty by nature
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Aug 26, 2005
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fc3swrx..............What you really need is a toy or another project. How do you manage to pass your time with nothing to do or drive.................;)


OH yeah,............welcome to our friendly neighborhood website...................lol
 

mkIIIman089

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Mar 30, 2005
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Yep, there should be a pretty large bolt/washer looking thing in there. You are correct, you are extremely lucky it didn't fly apart; now all you have to be lucky with is that your crank doesn't need to be replaced and you'll be on your way.

195 ft/lbs sounds correct shaeff!
 

fc3swrx

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Jan 25, 2006
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mkIIIman089 said:
Yep, there should be a pretty large bolt/washer looking thing in there. You are correct, you are extremely lucky it didn't fly apart; now all you have to be lucky with is that your crank doesn't need to be replaced and you'll be on your way.

195 ft/lbs sounds correct shaeff!


CRAP CRAP CRAP......

big sigh....:nono:

OK, any ideas a good place to pick up one of the crank bolts? You guys know of online dealership that sales all the stock parts or anything like that. The subaru has spoiled me, you can get almost every part for that car online somewhere.

I guess I'll go pull it apart and check it out...

Is the key wear problem something that will happen again and again. What exactly is the problem, crank bolt just gets loose?
 

mkIIIman089

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Mar 30, 2005
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The Supra community has a couple of dealerships that have excelent prices and you can get pretty much anything.

You can use Curt at Elmhurst Toyota (eparts@elmhursttoyota.com) or Jeff Watson at Champion Toyota (1-800-327-2087) both are excelent!

If you go to http://cygnusx1.net/supra/techtips.html
you can go through and find all the part numbers for what you need to streamline the ordering process.

The problem was someone didn't tighten it to the proper spec last time it was taken off, so it loosened. It should never happen again as long as the crank is in good condition, you get a new key, pulley, and bolt and torque it down to 195 ft/lbs.
 

fc3swrx

New Member
Jan 25, 2006
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Dallas
mkIIIman089 said:
The Supra community has a couple of dealerships that have excelent prices and you can get pretty much anything.

You can use Curt at Elmhurst Toyota (eparts@elmhursttoyota.com) or Jeff Watson at Champion Toyota (1-800-327-2087) both are excelent!

If you go to http://cygnusx1.net/supra/techtips.html
you can go through and find all the part numbers for what you need to streamline the ordering process.

The problem was someone didn't tighten it to the proper spec last time it was taken off, so it loosened. It should never happen again as long as the crank is in good condition, you get a new key, pulley, and bolt and torque it down to 195 ft/lbs.


Cool thanks....

Well I just went to reposition the care in the driveway and pop, hte crank pulley came off...

The key was gone, the crank keyway was damaged. It looks like one side of the keyway is fine the other is a little eaten down and warped look to it.

What about welding the key in and filing/grinding down the remains to make it fit... I guess that would be a last resort...

What do most people do besides replacing the crank?
 

mkIIIman089

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IIRC people have tried different things... most have failed. Welding is the right direction but specifically I can't give ya any advise. :dunno:
 

fc3swrx

New Member
Jan 25, 2006
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Dallas
suprahero said:
fc3swrx..............What you really need is a toy or another project. How do you manage to pass your time with nothing to do or drive.................;)


OH yeah,............welcome to our friendly neighborhood website...................lol

yeah, my neighbors hate me. besides the fact its loud the number of cars parked around my house...:naughty:

I really like this car and want to keep it. The guys that had it before me really babied it. I think it has around 120K.

I pulled the valve cover off and checked the cams cylinders 1 and 1 had some noticeable wear on the lobes. maybe that is a sign that it needs a rebuild soon. or the head is warping some.
 

fc3swrx

New Member
Jan 25, 2006
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Dallas
mkIIIman089 said:
IIRC people have tried different things... most have failed. Welding is the right direction but specifically I can't give ya any advise. :dunno:


I was looking on ebay for some spare parts:

Unorthodox pulley: looks like a complete replacement:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Unor...69350QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW#ebayphotohosting


Then there was a complete after market unit:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/86-9...72433QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V#ebayphotohosting



what do you guys recomend?



I was looking at it and I think I can create a weld to fill in the missing part around the key... What I need to know is what kinda of steel the crank is made out of? It looks like it is forged.
 

supra90turbo

shaeff is FTMFW!
Mar 30, 2005
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no no...
Unorthodox UDP will ruin. The harmonic damper really does something. If you want to replace it with an aftermarket unit, ATI has one now. IIRC it's in the $400's

That second link is fine, but I can guarantee that any one of us can get you a stock pulley for way less than that, shipped.

You may be able to weld the crank, but it'll probably be short lived.
 

SublimeSupra

Dreams of the Touge
Jan 17, 2006
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Go for either stocker,or ati no unorthodox!And as for welding it i had it done to mine because i couldnt find a decent replacement for a decent price.My brother sent it out to EastCoast crank and machine shop,sent them the crank and the dampener and it came back good as new.
 

fc3swrx

New Member
Jan 25, 2006
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Dallas
supra90turbo said:
no no...
Unorthodox UDP will ruin. The harmonic damper really does something. If you want to replace it with an aftermarket unit, ATI has one now. IIRC it's in the $400's

That second link is fine, but I can guarantee that any one of us can get you a stock pulley for way less than that, shipped.

You may be able to weld the crank, but it'll probably be short lived.

Yeah I read a few posts about it here and some ideas behind it.

to be honest and don't want to start a big argument, but my understanding and experience is that the dampner's (like on old GM V8's) was to prevent harmonics from reaching the cam which in turn translates that to the pushrods and on to the valves. Depending on how the valves are actuated in a DOHC motor may dictate timing chain or belt. The belts eleminiate all harmonics from being translated. I used a timing gear (pete Jackson) on my last 350 motor. They are common in road racing circuit because of the frequent motor builds. They are harsh on the cams though (Well ford 302/351's and GM350's etc..) not sure about the new generation idea's. from what I understand the ford guys are happy w/ the chain's Go figure.

Anyway if you have a link to somone that has some direct evidence of the crank dampner or lack of, causing a problem or premature failure I'd really like to read it. I've just thought it was so subjective that it's hard to really nail down specifics.

As far as replacing it, I just like to get another 20-30K out of the current motor and rebuild it when time comes, if I had to do it now I guess I could... just have to many money pits at the moment.

What about japan import motors? is there a big uproar against using them? used turbo motors in my mind is like buying used weed eaters. it may work but you are probably buying someone elses problem. But the supra motor appears to be very strong short the head studs and gasket.

Anyone got a good damner for sale?
 

fc3swrx

New Member
Jan 25, 2006
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Dallas
fc3swrx said:
Yeah I read a few posts about it here and some ideas behind it.

to be honest and don't want to start a big argument, but my understanding and experience is that the dampner's (like on old GM V8's) was to prevent harmonics from reaching the cam which in turn translates that to the pushrods and on to the valves. Depending on how the valves are actuated in a DOHC motor may dictate timing chain or belt. The belts eleminiate all harmonics from being translated. I used a timing gear (pete Jackson) on my last 350 motor. They are common in road racing circuit because of the frequent motor builds. They are harsh on the cams though (Well ford 302/351's and GM350's etc..) not sure about the new generation idea's. from what I understand the ford guys are happy w/ the chain's Go figure.

Anyway if you have a link to somone that has some direct evidence of the crank dampner or lack of, causing a problem or premature failure I'd really like to read it. I've just thought it was so subjective that it's hard to really nail down specifics.

As far as replacing it, I just like to get another 20-30K out of the current motor and rebuild it when time comes, if I had to do it now I guess I could... just have to many money pits at the moment.

What about japan import motors? is there a big uproar against using them? used turbo motors in my mind is like buying used weed eaters. it may work but you are probably buying someone elses problem. But the supra motor appears to be very strong short the head studs and gasket.

Anyone got a good damner for sale?

Disregard question, I think I was picking at a sore spot.... I was reading and got linked to another site about aftermarket pulley/dampner.

http://www.suprasonic.org/public_html/sonictech/tet/dualratedamper.html


However the guy in the article did say BMW and porche used them... maybe BMW but porche boxer motors are completely blanced because of the horizantal opposition, maybe the 400hz is an issue that is generated by 6cyl motors. Cause I know subaru motors don't have anything close to a dampner.
 

figgie

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Mar 30, 2005
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fc3swrx said:
Disregard question, I think I was picking at a sore spot.... I was reading and got linked to another site about aftermarket pulley/dampner.

http://www.suprasonic.org/public_html/sonictech/tet/dualratedamper.html


However the guy in the article did say BMW and porche used them... maybe BMW but porche boxer motors are completely blanced because of the horizantal opposition, maybe the 400hz is an issue that is generated by 6cyl motors. Cause I know subaru motors don't have anything close to a dampner.


has nothing to do with balancing. You can balance the motor to 0 grams and harmonics will still be there especially during power stroke on the #1 cylinder.

[record player on]
Inline motors suffer from the worse form of harmonics due to the length. No other engine configuration will exhibit the same hamrmonics as inline motors will. Not even H4 or H6 motors. That is why Steve Dinan wrote on it as BMW is the other big user of I6 motors. It is really not hard a concept to grasp ;)

Flywheel on one side and torque being applied to the other end. The crank WILL twist ;) And since it twist is must vibrate a specific freq and will resonate at Freq X. Just like a guitar

tune first string to E and if you tuned the 6th string correctly to E also it WILL resonate when you pluck the 1st string ;) These motors are like nothing you have seen before unless you worked on big rig disiel engine which happen to be Inline motors also ;)

[record player off]
 

fc3swrx

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Jan 25, 2006
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figgie said:
has nothing to do with balancing. You can balance the motor to 0 grams and harmonics will still be there especially during power stroke on the #1 cylinder.

[record player on]
Inline motors suffer from the worse form of harmonics due to the length. No other engine configuration will exhibit the same hamrmonics as inline motors will. Not even H4 or H6 motors. That is why Steve Dinan wrote on it as BMW is the other big user of I6 motors. It is really not hard a concept to grasp ;)

Flywheel on one side and torque being applied to the other end. The crank WILL twist ;) And since it twist is must vibrate a specific freq and will resonate at Freq X. Just like a guitar

tune first string to E and if you tuned the 6th string correctly to E also it WILL resonate when you pluck the 1st string ;) These motors are like nothing you have seen before unless you worked on big rig disiel engine which happen to be Inline motors also ;)

[record player off]

hmmm....

I understand resonant frequency (mechanical resonance) I beleive, it destroys bridges, buildings etc...

I just wanted to know what component actually starts to resonate that is destroying the bearings...I suppose its the bearings themsleves since they are of particular design they are susceptible to this... And the firing order too, like plucking guitar strings in order..

So with that said there should be an RPM range where this is worse and that RPM range should actually change with the amount of boost the motor runs or compression ratio...

Do you know what that is? I would think it would show up on a knock sensor if any of the standalone guys read the signal from it. I know our suby motors produce a lot of harmonics at around 3800-4500RPMS which is also peak torque.


OK, if this is already spelled out somewhere don't bother responding, I'm sure I will come across it sooner or later...:icon_surp

I once had a 1981 ford truck, INline 6 300ci and interestingly enough it did have bearing damage on more than one occasion...:nono:
 

mkIIIman089

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Now, I'm not claiming to understand fully these harmonics discussions, but as far as plucking guitar strings in order... the firing order isn't 1-2-3-4-5-6 it bounces all over, and at this moment the exact order escapes me. ;)
 

figgie

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Mar 30, 2005
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fc3swrx said:
hmmm....

I understand resonant frequency (mechanical resonance) I beleive, it destroys bridges, buildings etc...

I just wanted to know what component actually starts to resonate that is destroying the bearings...I suppose its the bearings themsleves since they are of particular design they are susceptible to this... And the firing order too, like plucking guitar strings in order..

So with that said there should be an RPM range where this is worse and that RPM range should actually change with the amount of boost the motor runs or compression ratio...

Do you know what that is? I would think it would show up on a knock sensor if any of the standalone guys read the signal from it. I know our suby motors produce a lot of harmonics at around 3800-4500RPMS which is also peak torque.


OK, if this is already spelled out somewhere don't bother responding, I'm sure I will come across it sooner or later...:icon_surp

I once had a 1981 ford truck, INline 6 300ci and interestingly enough it did have bearing damage on more than one occasion...:nono:

well the bearing get chewed up because the resonant freq causes enough of a vib to actually make the crank touch the bearing. In the supra it is as torque peak as it should be for any car as that is when the #1 power stroke is producing the most torque on the crank itself which therefore induces the most twist on the crank. I know ATI tuned my damper for 4000-8500 rpm for dampening.
 

figgie

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mkIIIman089 said:
Now, I'm not claiming to understand fully these harmonics discussions, but as far as plucking guitar strings in order... the firing order isn't 1-2-3-4-5-6 it bounces all over, and at this moment the exact order escapes me. ;)

1
5
3
6
2
4

keep in mind from a mechanical standpoint

1-6 will always be at the same timing position (both at X degree)
2-5 will always be at the same timing position (both at Y degree)
3-4 will always be at the same timing position (both at Z degree)
 

mkIIIman089

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figgie said:
1
5
3
6
2
4

keep in mind from a mechanical standpoint

1-6 will always be at the same timing position (both at X degree)
2-5 will always be at the same timing position (both at Y degree)
3-4 will always be at the same timing position (both at Z degree)
Thats what I thought, but at the risk of passing along HEARSAY ;) I didn't state my speculation as fact. :)