Staticpat's Redneck Rodknock fix OR How-To drop Oilpan

[staticpat]

Preface:
-The following is a good guide on how to remove the oil pan with the engine in the car. Many of us do not have the equipment to "pull the engine" for every problem. With this you can re-seal the oil pan, change the oil pump or attempt some bottom end work.

-I successfully cured rodknock using this, but it is not guaranteed by any means. This is like the $50 paint job how-to's, it will work but isn't the best method by far. I was successful because I parked the car as soon as I heard knock. I took my time, kept everything super clean, checked and re-checked my clearances. I'm no engine builder, but I tried my best and it worked.

-Depending on your situation this may be a good cure. I already had a spare project block when I developed rodknock. For me it was either spend thousands building up a powerhouse block or try and spend a few afternoons and $50 to see if I could get the car running good. If it failed, I was only out $50.

*Note I had a sheet with all the bolt sizes, if I find it I will update.

On with the show:

Part 1: How to Drop the Subframe:
Heres the TSRM page http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/manual.aspx?Section=LU&Page=7

-Jack up the car, secure it on jackstands.

-Remove front wheels

-Drain the oil

-Disconnect oil cooler line from block

-Remove block to transmission braces.

It's a good habit to rethread all your bolts. If I have to tell you this, then you probably shouldn't mess with your bottom end.

-Remove rubber thingy between body and motor.

With that out of the way let's move on to the suspension.

-Disconnect the tie rod ends.

You will need an alignment after you disconnect the tie rods. I spraypainted the shaft so I could get the alignment close enough to drive when I reinstall.

A)First you need to disconnect the bolt that holds the clamp which fuses the 2 pieces.

B)Unthread the shaft by putting a hand wrench on the flat sides of the rod. One side was seized and I needed to heat it up with a torch to break it free. 200 turns later it should be out,

-Disconnect the stabilizer bar end links. You have to hold the back of the stud from turning with vicegrips or something.

-Disconnect the lower shock bolt. When you lower the subframe remember to move this out of the way.

-Remove brake line brackets from brake caliper. Break clips off other break hoses. I disconnected the brake lines from the body because I was planning on taking the subframe completely off. You probably don't need to disconnect them.

Gross!

All disconnected

*You will need to support the engine from here on out, it will no longer be sitting on the motor mounts. You can use a cherry picker or whatever. For God's sake make sure this is secure, the last thing you need is an engine falling on you. Keep in mind you will be torquing hard later on.I made my own redneck brace between the shocktowers. If there is enough interest I will start a groupby.

-Disconnect the motor mounts and do what you need to do. I jacked up the engine and hooked up my contraption.

-There are 2 nuts and 1 bolt on each side for subframe.

Support the subframe in the middle before disconnecting. When it is supported you can break it loose, and let her come down. I held jackstands on both A-arms to keep it in place, so I could play underneath.

EDIT: It appears this picture is holding the engine up. Obviously put the jack under the center of the subframe.

I may need to go to the jackstore.... I'm running out quick.

Here is a shot of the clearance you get to get the pan out. Don't let too much weight sit on the steering column etc. Like I said, support the A-arms on either side of the subframe.

I'm tired now, I will post how to take off the pan/fix rodknock tomorrow.

 

[supra90turbo]

nice thus far.
lol @ your redneck engine brace
it does work though...

 

[staticpat]

I knew they made a real brace that uses the shock towers. Then I read that some guy used 2X4s and it worked. I wasn't about to crawl under an engine held up with a 2X4 so I made this out of some spare 4X4s.

I was skeptical at first but it was really solid. I let it sit overnight and tried to shake it just to make sure. As you may have guessed it did not fall on me. I felt safer here then I would with a cherry picker looming overheard.

I ended up having to jack up the engine a few more inches to get the pan off/on. There it is sitting 4"+4"so 8". If I had to redo I would have added a 2X4 to the legs, for a 10" raise.

Let me get some lunch and I will continue.

 

[GrimJack]

PM me when you're done writing this, I'll clean it up and move it to the FAQ area. Well done!

 

[Tanya]

I want to ask a stupid question, as I am unfamiliar with mk3s.........


With the mk2s, all you have to do is unbolt the motor mounts, and jack up the transmission til it hits the tunnel. That gives us enough clearance to pull the oil pan out.

Is this not do-able on the mk3?

Seems a bit over the top to pull the front end apart. Alignments cost $60ish, you can get a cheap engine puller (2 ton) for that amount of money
click here

 

[suprahero]

Good job Patrick. I was so scared that it was going to come apart on the dyno, but it held together. I should have known better than to doubt you. Please keep me informed about the group buy. Mine should be cheaper since I won't have to pay for shipping, I'll just pick it up from you................:biglaugh:

 

[da89soup]

On Pats first pull I remember shouting something like, INCOMING!!!! But the 7M held together. Pat did a great job!!!

 

[staticpat]

Hehe, no one was more worried than me for sure. Anyone whose been to the dyno knows that hearing your car rev and boost makes it sounds likes its going to blow anyway. Apparently I did a good job.

Sorry for delay, I spent Saturday re-clearing my car and the first Auto-X of the season was today. I should get the rest done by tonight.

 

[staticpat]

Part 2:Removing Bearings, Checking Clearances
TSRM Page is here:http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/manual.aspx?Section=EM&Page=69

Alright we left off with the subframe dropped down, hopefully not hanging by the steering column. Just keep the sides supported well because we will be playing in the middle.

From here on out my picture count went down because I was either wearing latex gloves or coated in oil. I will try and be as descriptive as possible.

-Remove the 200 oil pan bolts (12mm)

Don't forget to remove the tranny cover, 4 of the oil pan bolts are behind it.

-If your oil pan isn't free you will have to pry it out. Just stick a prybar or a screwdriver between the pan and block and free it up. Do a little along a few areas, don't try to do it all from one location. Make sure not to bend the pan, as it will not seal back correctly..

-You can now lower the pan and pull it out under the transmission. Careful not to smack the bottom end.

-This is how much clearance we have to work with. It's tight but doable.

-My plan of action was to remove each rodcap, check the clearances, record my measurement and condition of the bearing, and reinsert the cap. Then when all was done I would go back and replace them.

-You need to mark your caps some way, You cannot swap caps between rods. I was planning on using a punch and hammer, and punching a mark for the cylinder number (5 punches = cylinder number 5 etc.). You can pull the cap and mark it anyway you want, just make sure not to mix them up. Apparently my engine had been rebuilt before, so marks were already made for me. He cut in divets with a grinder for the cylinder number.

-To get to the rod you want you must rotate the crankshaft. Put a breaker bar or a large ratchet on the crank pulley bolt (19mm). Then turn the crank so the rod you want is at its lowest point. It's also important when checking clearances that the rod is at the bottom.

-There are 2 14mm bolts per rod, and they are on pretty tight. If you take the bolts off, the cap will most likely still be stuck. You will need to tap on the cap with a plastic or rubber (not metal!) hammer, or a block of wood to break it free. I am lazy and decided an impact gun would not only break off the tightass bolts, but also loosen the cap. It worked!

-If your not wearing gloves already, start to do so now, any debris or dirt can kill your bearings/crank. Change to clean gloves if they get dirty.

-If the lower bearing didn't come out with the cap we need to remove it now. You should be able to wiggle it out by hand.If you need to pick at it, use a pencil or something soft, no metal! This is a precision machined surface.

-After the bearings are removed, make sure to cover the rob bolt caps with rubber hose or something. Don't let them smack into the crank journal.

-Clean the crank journal (clean, lint free cloth) and inspect it for obvious scoring, I believe that as long as you can't feel any marks with your fingernail then it should be fine. Roundness is another story we won't get into. The bearings are designed to be softer and should tear up, so that the crank doesn't. Hopefully they did their job.

-Now we will check our clearances per the TSRM (which you should have been following along in.) You will need green plastigage. I had never used the stuff so it took me a few tries to get it correct. Lay a strip across the lower bearing (still inserted in the cap). Now reinstall the rod cap, and torque to specs (47 ft/lbs.) Remove the cap/bearing and measure your clearance using a mic or the plastigage sheet. Clearances should be between .021-.053mm, anything over .07mm is trash.

This was one of my sorry attempts, this shows what the strip should look like.

-Record your results. If you have factory bearings, Record the numbers per the TSRM for each rod http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/manual.aspx?Section=EM&Page=70. This will be a combination of the rod cap #, crankshaft #, and bearing # (ie. rodcap 1, crank 0, bearing 3). My engine was rebuilt with standard bearings so I didn't need to do this.

-Repeat for all rods. I was getting scared, because my first four came back in spec and looked clean. Then I tried the last two.

Could this be a problem? Apparently one was starved, and the debris killed another one.

OK I'll finish up later tonight or tomorrow. The next section will be short. Basically deciding what to do based on your results, cleaning pan and metal shavings, and reinstall.

 

[staticpat]

With the mk2s, all you have to do is unbolt the motor mounts, and jack up the transmission til it hits the tunnel. That gives us enough clearance to pull the oil pan out.

Is this not do-able on the mk3?

I haven't tried so I don't know for sure. I was struggling to get the pan out with the subframe out, I sure don't see how it could come out with the clearance from jacking up the tranny.

Actually with the subframe down, I still had to jack up the transmission to get enough clearance to actually pull the pan out, and if I went higher it would lift the whole car off the jackstands. It may be possible, I just didn't think to try it first.

Seems a bit over the top to pull the front end apart. Alignments cost $60ish, you can get a cheap engine puller (2 ton) for that amount of money
click here

I honestly believe this is easier than pulling the engine, the subframe was dismantled in under 2 hours. Total of like 15 bolts. Plus its a one man job. It could be me, I hate pulling engines, too many lines and connections to keep track of, and rusty exhaust bolts suck.

The reason I wrote this is because if anyone wants to reseal their oil pan or shim their oil pump, they get "just pull the engine its easier." I disagree.

 

[supra90turbo]

Not to mention once the subframe is down, you can simply roll it away

and, i don't know why, but this picture and caption simply kills me....

I may need to go to the jackstore.... I'm running out quick

 

[staticpat]

Part 3:Cleaning Up, Reinstall, Break In

Note: By now I was covered in gross and very few pictures were taken, :<.

Alright this section is up to you. Read your results and make a smart decision. All my bearings were in clearance except for the 2 that were destroyed. The crank journal was still clean on those cylinders, so I decided to replace the bearings and see what was up. I was lucky that my crank had already been ground for standard sized bearings. I was able to go to the machine shop and order a whole new set of standard sized clevites for $40. I figured it was better to match and replace all 12 while I was there. I left the mains and thrust washers intact.

If my crank was scored, if the rods were hitting the block, if my clearances were out I would have scrapped it and rebuilt. Choose wisely or you wil be back in there.

Based on results you may want to:
-Go to Toyota and order just the numbered bearings that were bad
-Order a matched crank/bearing set from Autozone or somewhere (~$350)
-Get crank reground and order all new rods, mains, thrust washers
-Screw it and go for a full rebuild

As mentioned I just replaced my 6 rod bearings, if I developed rodknock again, I was only out ~$50. If this will be a long term re-build make sure to change your oil pump while your in there.

-If your going to leave the car for a few days waiting on parts or whatever, make sure to put the oil pan back on. Protect the bottom end from water, dirt, debris etc.

-Make sure to clean out all metal shavings in your oil pan. My pan had gunk the consistency of toothpaste. I cleaned every last bit of metal out, and flushed it with clean oil many times. Metal shavings are the death of all things in your engine, and if they get in your turbo feed line, then bad things will happen.

-Re-check your clearances before final assembly. Same as before.

-When reinstalling your bearings, don't let any metal come in contact. Let the surfaces float. Lube up the bearing and cap before putting together Also lube the top half of the bearing before putting on the crank.

You can use moly lube, stp, or plain old oil to re-assemble. I dipped each bearing and cap in oil, then put them together. Then I dipped the upper bearing and installed it.

-As you reinstall the rod caps, tighten the bolts evenly. I made 3 passes when torquing. Factory specs are 47 ft/lbs.

-Make sure to clean the block and oil pan mating surfaces very well. Clean any oil residue and old gasket material. Re-seal with FIPG or the gasket of your choice. The important thing is to not overtorque or it will leak. Specs are 9 ft/lbs. After everything is buttoned up and the engine heat cycles I like to tighten them a little more.

-Install is reverse of assembly... yada yada

-When starting the car for the first time pull the EFI fuse. Crank the car over a few times to let the oil pressure build. Let the crank/turbo etc. get washed in oil. Then you can start it for real.

-Breaking in new bearings is not the same as breaking in piston rings. I don't remeber the exact technique. Basically hold the rpms at a certain level for a few seconds, and then move on to other rpm levels.

-I let the car idle for 20 minutes then changed oil and filter. I then drove the car around the block, at low rpms. Then I changed the oil/filter. Then once again after my first 500 miles. I am paranoid about any leftover shavings as well as the new bearings wearing in.

I took the car to the dyno, true test of reliability. Anyone whose been on the dyno knows how scary it is to hear your car rev/boost.Everyone was hiding behind things waiting for a rod to shoot through somethng. Hurray, no knock! (Results may vary)

 

[Turbo. Targa. Life.]

:thumbsup: woo for redneck fixes!!

 

[suprahero]

Patrick's a great guy and I'm glad his car held together at the dyno.............::w00t::

 

[mkiiSupraMan18]

I honestly believe this is easier than pulling the engine, the subframe was dismantled in under 2 hours. Total of like 15 bolts. Plus its a one man job. It could be me, I hate pulling engines, too many lines and connections to keep track of, and rusty exhaust bolts suck.

I disagree w/ the bold part for sure. But, under a car w/ nothing under it w/ boards and a chain holding up an engine/trans... alone? OSHA would not approve and neither should anyone w/ a brain.

One hell of a write up, and hopefully it saves someone time/money. But if this doesnt fix it... If the wiring connections are what freak you out, just pull the harness through the firewall, it seriously takes 5 minutes.

I dont me to knock what you're saying but thats a VERY risky situation to put yourself in even w/ another person or two around. Just my $.002

*edit*
sorry, havent been on in a while and seen this thread in another thread somewhere.

 

[NashMan]

reson being is cause the mk3 supra has mid sump pan and you can nto get the picup to clear the baffle with the sub frame being in the way

mk2 just need a jack and un bolt tranny from chassie

I want to ask a stupid question, as I am unfamiliar with mk3s.........


With the mk2s, all you have to do is unbolt the motor mounts, and jack up the transmission til it hits the tunnel. That gives us enough clearance to pull the oil pan out.

Is this not do-able on the mk3?

Seems a bit over the top to pull the front end apart. Alignments cost $60ish, you can get a cheap engine puller (2 ton) for that amount of money
click here

 

[staticpat]

I disagree w/ the bold part for sure. But, under a car w/ nothing under it w/ boards and a chain holding up an engine/trans... alone?

Having a second hand is always a smart idea, I'm not going to argue with you there. But just so you know I didn't make this up, its straight out of the TSRM for replacing the oil pump etc.

11. REMOVE ENGINE MOUNTING NUTS AND WASHERS
Attach the engine hoist chain to the two engine hangers

If it's safe enough for Toyota its safe enough for me. I feel much safer being under an engine held by a stable shock tower brace (which as mentioned, they make legitimate ones) than by a hydraulic hoist. Obviously a 4X4 isn't the best solution, it is just the route I took.

Anytime you are under the car held by jackstands or whatever you are taking a risk. It's part of the job, and having a second person around is always a smart decision. Hopefully people that work on cars know proper procedure and have common sense. I wouldn't crawl under something I didn't have 100% faith in. Of course if you don't feel safe, you should by no means attempt it.

But if this doesnt fix it... If the wiring connections are what freak you out, just pull the harness through the firewall, it seriously takes 5 minutes.

My motivation for writing this was to show that peoples' mindset of "omg the oil pan is leaking, pull engine" is not the only answer. Taking out the ECU may take 5 minutes, but there is much more to pulling the engine than the wiring. There are lots of misc lines (clutch, fuel, water, vaccum etc.) and fluids, exhaust components (turbo bolts are hard as hell), drivetrain .... Dropping the subframe is like 8 bolts; no lines, fluids, harnesses or having to navigate a transmission necessary. This method is defintely much easier and shorter than pulling the engine.

Of course if you don't feel safe or comfortable, don't do it! I should hope people have enough sense to keep themselves safe. This does carry risks, but so does changing brakes.

 

[mkiiSupraMan18]

^ I guess this will get into the whole "pull/not to pull" debate, so I'll just say again:

One hell of an awesome write up.

I always wanted to do a step by step like this.

 

[Grimsta]

I just wanted to add you don't have to get an alignment just from disconnecting tie rods. I mean if you unthread them off the rod then yeah, but all you have to do is take them out of the knuckle and the whole tie-rod is intact. Then the knuckle will just turn freely left and right until you reconnect the tie rod, which will put it right back where it was when you took it off. Saved you $60 for an alignment right there! I've done this many times on a rack, alot easier than pulling the engine and a little less messy IMO!

 

[Yellow 13]

Ill stick with my engine puller. I hate working under cars unless I absolutely have to.