Space Frame/Tube Frame

SySt

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Mar 30, 2005
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What do you guys think about these types of frames? What would be better than a Supra weighing less than 2700 pounds with a very solid frame that looks stock from the outside from the most part?

I find this idea very appealing. I kinda had an idea of how it could work. I think it would be unfeasible for most to simply measure everything out and make a frame from the measurements. What about integrating the tubes onto the inside of the body panels while simoultaniously cutting out the unibody structure. Meaning, cut out all but the exterior body paneling in one section. Measure, bend and cut a couple tubes to fit along the perimeter of the panel. Weld tack weld the tubes to the panel. Keep building like that while strating to connect tubes where they meet and eventually you have a complete space frame with the exact same exterior body dimensions. I beleive most 1 5/8" roll bar DOM tubing weighs around 2 pounds a foot. Think we could make the frame with less than 600 feet of tubing? I sure hope so.

Anyhow, just a little idea I had pop up. Tell me what you guys think. If it was feasible I would definitily do it. One main thing I suppose would be to map out what we think would be needed as far as tubing in a CAD program and do all the math to make sure the frame would be strong enough, how much it would weigh and where abouts it's center of gravity would be. I know most people like their plush interiors. I like nothing better than a smooth metal interior with only the needed parts...
 

Stretch

Tallest MK3 driver ever!!
Mar 30, 2005
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It would be fun I bet. Take measurements, and then cut all the skin off the body and doors etc and make the tube body like a nascar. It owuld be quite involved tho, getting it balanced.
eric
 

Shawndude

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Mar 30, 2005
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Hey SySt, I see you're still dreaming big! :)

Unibody design is actually a very efficient way to create a structure (aka weight to strength ratio). What kills it is the impracticality of having a fully closed box. You have doors that open contributing nothing to strength, windows that offer no support and create huge holes, pesky components like engines, human passengers and open trunk space getting in the way of proper reinforcement and not to mention the silly targa roofs.

Space frames are great in handling focused loads in specific high load areas (like suspension). Unibody is great where the load has to go a long distance, like between the front and rear suspension. Guess what Toyota did? Frames (more or less) on the front and rear suspension, and unibody in the middle. Since the bodywork has to be there anyway, might as well take advantage of it.

The ideal car uses a combination of both types of structures as neither type is inherently superior.
 

SySt

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Mar 30, 2005
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The idea I have utilizes the factory doors still, though they can be stripped of reinforcement. I hate unibody the design, it just seems not uniformed. I think a tube frame would be much more uniform and all of the body panels could be fiberglass. I would not care so much about my body panels being ruined as some (especially the 1/4 panels would be easier to replace).
 

Adjuster

Supramania Contributor
The MK3 uses a combination of unibody and subframes.

In my opinion, the best way to reduce the weight of the MK3 is to turn up the boost pressure and add more fuel. (IE: not even bother. (LOL)

If you must cut and add pipe, your likely going to end up with a less effective structure than Toyota designed from the start. The only way your going to get a stronger strutcture is to add braces across areas that normally did not have them from the factory, and that is going to compromise your use of the car. (Like having those bars across your cargo area, or going along the belt line from the A to C post.) Sure you can make any vehicle stronger, but it's all a trade off of use v/s structure. Notice the NASCAR guys don't have doors? Neither do most small track race cars. They weld them shut and add outside bash bars.

I have thought about adding ladder type subframe connectors to the MK3. (They would be attached to the underside of the floor on both sides at the rocker pinch welds, and also to the sides of the exhaust/driveline tunnel. The tunnel will have "hoops" sectioned into the floor to further make it stronger too. Bolt in driveline hoops to close the "circle" would complete the structure and allow you to work on the car still.)

What we used to do when I built limo's was to weld metal straps across the floor pan of the stretched area. This was in conjunction with new crossmembers to hold up the extended multi piece driveline, and carrier bearings. It is pretty amazing how much stronger the floor can be made by just adding a web/gusset pattern to the existing floor pan of 1/8" x 1" cold rolled steel strap. You stitch weld the strap to the floor, and use a hammer to help keep it formed to the contours of the existing floor. Tie that to the subframe and it would make the MK3 very resistant to bending which is the problem you feel with the targa top off. (Start with a hardtop car, and your 100% better off to begin with if your going for the ultimate handling MK3.)

The down side is added weight to the car, and the noise your going to hear from the subframes being "welded to the car" at the points where you have them connected to your unibody/ladder frame. (The stock rear subframe is rubber isolated, but the front one is directly bolted to the unibody, so isolation there is not an issue.)

If you modified the rear subframe so it could never be removed again, you might be able to remove some weight at the brackets that mount the rubber isolators, and replace it all with tubing and brackets welded directly to the unibody, and tie them into some carefully placed crossmembers to make the struture even stronger at the expense of some limited loss of cargo space. (Think X brace going from the wheel houses to the inside of the roof/quarter sail/C post area.) If you did that behind the rear seats, you could maintain passenger space, yet still have a very strong design.

The "free" way to also improve your cars structure is to "seam" or stitch weld where the factory seams in the car are. Keep in mind, when you do this, you make the car less likely to bend, but that is BAD thing forward of the front strut towers, and rear of the rear ones. You also have to remove all the seam sealer, and then replace it when your done if you want to keep your car wet weather useable.

So, to keep weight down, a combination of the following might work out, but it would be ALOT of work.
1) Strip the interior, seam sealer, undercoating and other flamable stuff on the car. (Sound deadening etc.)
2) Seam weld everything between the strut towers.
3) Using strap, reinforce an X brace that ties the tourqe boxes together across the floor pan. (Goes up and over the tunnel etc.)
4) Using pipe, weld in a rear "doLuck" brace behind the front seats.
5) Using strap, do the same across the front of the floor at the floor to cowl point. (Completing the "box with an X across it.) The quarter rails are the other sides of the box...
6) Fabricate ladder frames for each side that are welded into the floor at the main pinch welds along the rockers, they would further be cross braced too. These are tied with strap through the floor to the improvements inside the car. (Welded up where it passes through the floor so no seam sealer is needed, and it's as strong as possible. You could even use short pipes, and a hole saw if you want, but the strap placed right would do the job fine, and slots to pass the strap through are easy to cut with a small die grinder and cutting wheel.)
7) Fabricate an engine bay brace that ties the strut towers to the cowl.
8) Fabricate a new subframe brace that uses the stock bolt in one, and the "doLuck" brace that bolts to the lower control arm rear points. This could be X'd to be even stronger too.
9) X brace the rear cargo area, from wheelhouse/foor edge to C post/roof area.
10) Strap or pipe across the underside of the roof to tie the X" tops together. Personally, I think using strap there would work fine, and maintain a low profile to keep your rear view as open as possible. Same with adding more structure to the sides along the inner parts of the C post, using strap there is a easy way to make it stronger, and not lose much passenger space. (Straps could be angled up from the "doLuck" point at the rear tourqe box to the attachement point of the top of the cargo area X making the car that much stronger w/o much loss of interior space.)

If you did this all right, the interior trim would even fit back into the car most likely, but you'd have some holes needed for the X brace to pass through. This cage would not be NHRA leagal, but it would be stronger in any type off crash, and maintains the factory crush zones forward and aft of the strut towers. (Which saves your life in a crash by absorbing some of the energy v/s letting you stop to quickly and die.)

When your done with all the additions and welding, you can further make the car stronger by filling all the boxed channels with two part foam.

Good luck.
 
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SySt

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Mar 30, 2005
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See thats just it though. I do not want to keep the unibody. I want a tube frame with the same body dimensions as a stock MK3. Handling and weight are a part of why I want the tube frame. But also protection and making quicker and easier to work on and not worrying about rust. More boost will not do me any good as my LS6 will not be forced induced ;). Also, my Supra is no longer a daily driver and right now all that is left is body paneling, fuel tank and suspension parts.
 

IJ.

Grumpy Old Man
Mar 30, 2005
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Syst: What you propose will no longer be a Mk3 or even a Supra it'll just be a silhouette :(

May as well buy a Kit Car and use your Motor in it and at least get something that's been partially engineered as building a Chassis is not a home project unless you have a really well equipped shop set up.
(I'm NOT bagging on you just trying to help you not kill a shell, as I've done a tube frame car and know just how much work it was and never completed it past drivable stage)
 

SySt

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Mar 30, 2005
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I am not yet equipped to do this. I have only thought about it. What I propose would still be a Supra, as that is what the title and insurance would claim it as ;). Why not buy a kit car? Because it is not what I want. If what I propose is do-able, it is exactly what I want. Even if I did this, I would do it to a shell that was a POS as I would only need the body as a guide, not for use afterwards.
 

SySt

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Mar 30, 2005
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Hey, regardless of anything. If anyone has good links or books to read regarding the design of tube chassis that would be great easpecially tube chassis that have stock body dimensions. I am having some difficulty finding the information I am looking for.
 

Adjuster

Supramania Contributor
Find some books on early F cars. (Land of nice suites and good food.)

Those Ferrari's were all tube frame cars with thin metal bodies over them.

Keep us up to date on how the LS engine swap goes. I'd really like to put one in my car if this stroker 7M ever goes TU. (Figure a nice LS7 with custom CR at 9:1 and a pair of turbo's force feeding it...)

All it would take is an unlimited budget. (Same thing as your tube frame Supra.)
 

SySt

New Member
Mar 30, 2005
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Burnsville, Minnesota
Here is a quick sketch of what my idea is. The red lines in the pictures represent where tubing would be. The tubing could then easily be cover by sheet metal.
 

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