i've heard people say you should put a diffrent oil jet in to put less oil up top and i've also heard people say you should shim the oil pump relife spring but i dont see why you would do both. and I wrong? if not which should i be doing???
shim the oil pump or change the jet size
- Thread starter whenmunkysfly
- Start date
Why would you want less oil on top? Leave the oil system as is, except the oil cooler/remote mount set up.
If you shim the oil pump, I recommend 1-3mm (about 2 washers). Higher oil pressure will increase flow (rate actually), but only to the point where the actual oil passage size and bearing clearances can accommodate.
Remember the system design is a low pressure high volume set-up. Increasing pressure past a certain point will do you no good and can cause problems blowing seals (turbo seal comes to mind). I did mine with 2 washers...gives me 10 psi at idle and 40 psi at 3000+ rpm using 0-30w oil and a Wix filter. Using thicker oil (40w to 50w) will increase pressure too...consider that when shimming the pump.
Remember the system design is a low pressure high volume set-up. Increasing pressure past a certain point will do you no good and can cause problems blowing seals (turbo seal comes to mind). I did mine with 2 washers...gives me 10 psi at idle and 40 psi at 3000+ rpm using 0-30w oil and a Wix filter. Using thicker oil (40w to 50w) will increase pressure too...consider that when shimming the pump.
I have a SBC spring in mind, that when tested was 2-4lbs heavier than stock.
It is located in the relieve valve.
With 10w30 mobile one, I run 40psi @ 3000rpm even on 102 deg days and constant driving.
I do run an oil restricter (sp?) in my turbo due to the turbo seals leaking the occasional oil.
Remember, turbos don't like 40psi or more when not under full boost & load.
It is located in the relieve valve.
With 10w30 mobile one, I run 40psi @ 3000rpm even on 102 deg days and constant driving.
I do run an oil restricter (sp?) in my turbo due to the turbo seals leaking the occasional oil.
Remember, turbos don't like 40psi or more when not under full boost & load.
I have to disagree. That is just a plain bad idea. Why use oil that needs more heat to flow? It makes no sense. Seeing your gague on the dash rise does not mean your engine is getting more oil.whenmunkysfly said:
hm... just givin this thread a read through, and i noted that i would burn oil when using 50w but i havn't seen ANY oil loss w/ 30w... just thought i'd mention that (i'm assuming it may've been burnt through the turbo)
I went from 10w-30 Mobil 1 5000 to 10w-30 Mobil Synthetic and my turbo started leaking more oil. All seals are replaced so didn't leak anywhere else, I was kind of suprised...I didn't think it would affect the turbo this way since they don't have rubber seals.
Nick M said:
I agree with Nick...50w oil is not a good idea IMO. 10w-40 perhaps on a high milage motor, but that is as heavy as I would go. Do a search on oil here and you'll see why I say this...it's been beat to death.
In Phoenix you can use the 10W-40 no problem. For those that do not realize it, or haven't read the other 8 billion oil threads, those number represent temperature usage.
A simple google search will show the range, if you can not find it here or in your owners manual.
A simple google search will show the range, if you can not find it here or in your owners manual.
Beaten to death indeed...but here's something a few may find interesting.
I'm a member of the SAE: http://tinyurl.com/2qt8b While I've never been an automotive engineer becoming a member of this organization permits access to a wealth of data by experts in the field. I though some might be interested in a technical paper I was reading the other day. Parts of it are why I'm always hammering on people who use thick oils in street cars. Those of you with rod knock worries might want to take heed.
Steve Bergin, a senior SAE research engineer with General Motors recently gave presentations to several technical groups. He addressed several myths. According to Bergin, "Other than running out of oil, the primary oil-related problem that kills engines are deposits that cause stuck lifters, stuck piston rings and blocked oil passages. It is not wear."
Deposits and Wear
Bergin begins with an up-front caution: "Don't add anything to your oil." Then comes his principal message. "If the oil protects the following components, everything else in the engine will almost certainly be OK."
First, the oil must fill and prevent sticking of the hydraulic valve lifters, Bergin explained. "Every time an engine is stopped, some cam lobe will be holding a valve open -- and over a period of about an hour the lifter plunger will be driven down low into its lifter body by the force of the valve spring. If the lifter plunger sticks in this position after the engine starts, because of rust or varnish, the valve cannot follow the full lobe profile, and slams closed. The entire purpose of the lobe profile is to decelerate the valve as it approaches its seat, so that the valve hits its seat gently.
"But if the valve hits its seat hard enough for a long enough time, the valve will break, and this will destroy the engine." In addition to its sealing role, the oil must protect piston ring operations. "Pistons are always made of aluminum, get real hot and expand a lot. To avoid seizure when hot, cold pistons must be relatively loose in their bores. Piston rings, when wet with oil, provide the sealing that is necessary for compression and starting and must be free in their grooves and stay in contact with the cylinder wall.
"If rings stick when cold, starting is difficult. If rings stick when hot, oil consumption, oil degradation and blowby increase and deposits causing ring sticking are likely to get worse. "Stuck rings can act like cutting tool inserts that scuff the cylinder walls -- which ultimately leads to piston seizure in the bore, and engine destruction," Bergin related.
Third, the oil's ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) additive is very important in protecting heavily loaded, boundary-lubricated parts, such as cam lobes, valve lifters, piston rings and cylinder bores. Boundary lubrication results when metal-to-metal contact occurs, "which in turn causes the deposition of the antiwear film from ZDDP."
While the antiwear properties of ZDDP will not completely eliminate wear, "they will reduce wear by orders of magnitude so that it will not likely be a limiting factor on engine life," Bergin said. Phosphorus is an important component of ZDDP and, as well, a poison to emissions systems above certain levels. The auto industry has definite concerns about the use of phosphorus above a certain level, and considers phosphorus above 0.10 percent mass in a motor oil to be an emissions systems threat.
Bergin says, "New formulation technology can use ZDDP much more effectively. However, the oil viscosity will not have any practical effect on wear."
Indestructible Bearings?
The other major part of the engine that oil must lubricate and protect is journal bearings. Examples of journal bearings include the points where piston connecting rods join the crankshaft and where the crankshaft is supported in the engine block.
Bergin notes that with undamaged journal bearings, "If a journal bearing initially contains a film of oil, it is simply not possible to squeeze all the oil out by any loading of the bearing. If the bearing and journal are not damaged the surfaces simply cannot be forced into contact. Undamaged journal bearings with debris-free oil flowing are virtually indestructible."
How strong are bearings? Bergin noted, "As part of our quality control operations, we conducted torture tests in our laboratories where engines are run at top speed and load, and are deliberately supplied with inadequate cooling so that both the coolant and oil temperatures continue to rise until the engine fails. "The failure mechanism at truly extreme temperatures is partial lifter collapse followed by valve breakage and piston destruction. The bearings, however, are not damaged in any way."
So how can indestructible journal bearings ever fail, aside from damage from debris? Bergin states, "Bearings get damaged and fail at a later point, even with the oil flowing, most often by oils that have too high a viscosity, and thus are not pumpable at low temperatures." That last sentence contains three key points: "too high a viscosity", "fail later", and "not pumpable".
The Low-Vis Myth
Bergin points to a common belief that "the need to improve fuel economy has led auto manufacturers to recommend lower viscosity oils that cause more wear than higher viscosity oils." But all evidence, he says, indicates that viscosity has virtually no effect on wear.
The need to improve fuel economy is another driver that has led auto manufacturers to move to lower viscosity oils, such as SAE 5W-30 and even 0W20 and 0W-30. These lower viscosity oils that auto manufacturers recommend today (primarily SAE 5W-30 and 10W-30) do not cause increased wear, he reiterates.
"Journal bearing damage and failure are caused by the thermal overload that occurs when the oil supply is cut off. Mechanical overload does not cause journal bearing failure -- except in the isolated case where extreme mechanical thrust overload can cause attached flanges to fail, regardless of oil viscosity."
The Thickness Threat
Threats to engines come from a number of sources, including such obvious ones as using the wrong quality oil (SA or SB oils, for example, which contain no antiwear additives) or not changing the oil at the proper intervals.
And Bergin notes that a threat to an engine today, including bearings, can come from another source. "Bearings get damaged most often by oils that have too high a viscosity and thus are not pumpable at low temperatures."
Recent lower viscosity recommendations by the auto industry are based primarily upon the fact that modern EFI engines will start at much lower temperatures than previously, he said, and the oil must be pumpable. In fact, unlike earlier engines starting is now almost independent of cranking speed and duration."
What constitutes "too high a viscosity?" Beyond noting that auto manufacturers have recently begun recommending lower viscosity oils, such as SAE 5W-30, Bergin made only one recommendation to engineers: "do not use SAE 20W-50 oil or any other viscosity grade that is not recommended," he stressed. Overall, he feels, "There's lots of misunderstanding about oil viscosity, much of it from oil company messages which are intended to generate a marketing advantage."
Extreme fluctuations of weather seem to have been a fixture for a number of years -- and may not lessen in the future. Add this temperature fluctuation to the fact that current engines can start at low temperatures and, following Bergin's points, it suggests the possibility for an oil-related incident to surface -- with higher viscosity grades being the culprit.
Read that last sentence as many times as it takes to sink in. Run a 15-40 or greater and when you start the engine cold you're killing it. "Cold" is a relative term. What matters is the oil's pumpability spec at 0 degrees C. It could be thick enough to cause bearing damage at higher temps, you just won't see the effects until the bearing fails at a later time. In short, those of you who insist on running higher viscosities aren't doing your engine any favors.
Damage/wear can also be eliminated by using depth filtration. I suggest reading SAE Technical Paper 952557: The Influnece of Filter Selection on Engine Wear, Emissions, and Performance.
For those who insist on changing they're oil often I suggest SAE Technical Paper 2003-01-3119: Antiwear Performance of Low Phosphorus Engine Oils.
You'll have to buy these papers of course. You can get a price break by being a member. If you're a student joining the SAE is cheap.
I'm a member of the SAE: http://tinyurl.com/2qt8b While I've never been an automotive engineer becoming a member of this organization permits access to a wealth of data by experts in the field. I though some might be interested in a technical paper I was reading the other day. Parts of it are why I'm always hammering on people who use thick oils in street cars. Those of you with rod knock worries might want to take heed.
Steve Bergin, a senior SAE research engineer with General Motors recently gave presentations to several technical groups. He addressed several myths. According to Bergin, "Other than running out of oil, the primary oil-related problem that kills engines are deposits that cause stuck lifters, stuck piston rings and blocked oil passages. It is not wear."
Deposits and Wear
Bergin begins with an up-front caution: "Don't add anything to your oil." Then comes his principal message. "If the oil protects the following components, everything else in the engine will almost certainly be OK."
First, the oil must fill and prevent sticking of the hydraulic valve lifters, Bergin explained. "Every time an engine is stopped, some cam lobe will be holding a valve open -- and over a period of about an hour the lifter plunger will be driven down low into its lifter body by the force of the valve spring. If the lifter plunger sticks in this position after the engine starts, because of rust or varnish, the valve cannot follow the full lobe profile, and slams closed. The entire purpose of the lobe profile is to decelerate the valve as it approaches its seat, so that the valve hits its seat gently.
"But if the valve hits its seat hard enough for a long enough time, the valve will break, and this will destroy the engine." In addition to its sealing role, the oil must protect piston ring operations. "Pistons are always made of aluminum, get real hot and expand a lot. To avoid seizure when hot, cold pistons must be relatively loose in their bores. Piston rings, when wet with oil, provide the sealing that is necessary for compression and starting and must be free in their grooves and stay in contact with the cylinder wall.
"If rings stick when cold, starting is difficult. If rings stick when hot, oil consumption, oil degradation and blowby increase and deposits causing ring sticking are likely to get worse. "Stuck rings can act like cutting tool inserts that scuff the cylinder walls -- which ultimately leads to piston seizure in the bore, and engine destruction," Bergin related.
Third, the oil's ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) additive is very important in protecting heavily loaded, boundary-lubricated parts, such as cam lobes, valve lifters, piston rings and cylinder bores. Boundary lubrication results when metal-to-metal contact occurs, "which in turn causes the deposition of the antiwear film from ZDDP."
While the antiwear properties of ZDDP will not completely eliminate wear, "they will reduce wear by orders of magnitude so that it will not likely be a limiting factor on engine life," Bergin said. Phosphorus is an important component of ZDDP and, as well, a poison to emissions systems above certain levels. The auto industry has definite concerns about the use of phosphorus above a certain level, and considers phosphorus above 0.10 percent mass in a motor oil to be an emissions systems threat.
Bergin says, "New formulation technology can use ZDDP much more effectively. However, the oil viscosity will not have any practical effect on wear."
Indestructible Bearings?
The other major part of the engine that oil must lubricate and protect is journal bearings. Examples of journal bearings include the points where piston connecting rods join the crankshaft and where the crankshaft is supported in the engine block.
Bergin notes that with undamaged journal bearings, "If a journal bearing initially contains a film of oil, it is simply not possible to squeeze all the oil out by any loading of the bearing. If the bearing and journal are not damaged the surfaces simply cannot be forced into contact. Undamaged journal bearings with debris-free oil flowing are virtually indestructible."
How strong are bearings? Bergin noted, "As part of our quality control operations, we conducted torture tests in our laboratories where engines are run at top speed and load, and are deliberately supplied with inadequate cooling so that both the coolant and oil temperatures continue to rise until the engine fails. "The failure mechanism at truly extreme temperatures is partial lifter collapse followed by valve breakage and piston destruction. The bearings, however, are not damaged in any way."
So how can indestructible journal bearings ever fail, aside from damage from debris? Bergin states, "Bearings get damaged and fail at a later point, even with the oil flowing, most often by oils that have too high a viscosity, and thus are not pumpable at low temperatures." That last sentence contains three key points: "too high a viscosity", "fail later", and "not pumpable".
The Low-Vis Myth
Bergin points to a common belief that "the need to improve fuel economy has led auto manufacturers to recommend lower viscosity oils that cause more wear than higher viscosity oils." But all evidence, he says, indicates that viscosity has virtually no effect on wear.
The need to improve fuel economy is another driver that has led auto manufacturers to move to lower viscosity oils, such as SAE 5W-30 and even 0W20 and 0W-30. These lower viscosity oils that auto manufacturers recommend today (primarily SAE 5W-30 and 10W-30) do not cause increased wear, he reiterates.
"Journal bearing damage and failure are caused by the thermal overload that occurs when the oil supply is cut off. Mechanical overload does not cause journal bearing failure -- except in the isolated case where extreme mechanical thrust overload can cause attached flanges to fail, regardless of oil viscosity."
The Thickness Threat
Threats to engines come from a number of sources, including such obvious ones as using the wrong quality oil (SA or SB oils, for example, which contain no antiwear additives) or not changing the oil at the proper intervals.
And Bergin notes that a threat to an engine today, including bearings, can come from another source. "Bearings get damaged most often by oils that have too high a viscosity and thus are not pumpable at low temperatures."
Recent lower viscosity recommendations by the auto industry are based primarily upon the fact that modern EFI engines will start at much lower temperatures than previously, he said, and the oil must be pumpable. In fact, unlike earlier engines starting is now almost independent of cranking speed and duration."
What constitutes "too high a viscosity?" Beyond noting that auto manufacturers have recently begun recommending lower viscosity oils, such as SAE 5W-30, Bergin made only one recommendation to engineers: "do not use SAE 20W-50 oil or any other viscosity grade that is not recommended," he stressed. Overall, he feels, "There's lots of misunderstanding about oil viscosity, much of it from oil company messages which are intended to generate a marketing advantage."
Extreme fluctuations of weather seem to have been a fixture for a number of years -- and may not lessen in the future. Add this temperature fluctuation to the fact that current engines can start at low temperatures and, following Bergin's points, it suggests the possibility for an oil-related incident to surface -- with higher viscosity grades being the culprit.
Read that last sentence as many times as it takes to sink in. Run a 15-40 or greater and when you start the engine cold you're killing it. "Cold" is a relative term. What matters is the oil's pumpability spec at 0 degrees C. It could be thick enough to cause bearing damage at higher temps, you just won't see the effects until the bearing fails at a later time. In short, those of you who insist on running higher viscosities aren't doing your engine any favors.
Damage/wear can also be eliminated by using depth filtration. I suggest reading SAE Technical Paper 952557: The Influnece of Filter Selection on Engine Wear, Emissions, and Performance.
For those who insist on changing they're oil often I suggest SAE Technical Paper 2003-01-3119: Antiwear Performance of Low Phosphorus Engine Oils.
You'll have to buy these papers of course. You can get a price break by being a member. If you're a student joining the SAE is cheap.
Not my stuff, I'm just repeating what I read. I figure the SAE types know more than I do. Lol, and if you saw me hand fly a DME ARC you wouldn't think I'm smart. Be quiet now or I'll report your ass to ALPA....we can't have the public finding out most of us are dummies you know 
well that would explain why my vw did this...i had just changed the oil the day before. i was driving to work and just got off the freeway as i let off the gas and pushed in the clutch i started to coast. a few seconds later the low oil pressure light and buzzer came on i stopped right away and shut it down poped the hood and checked the oil...it was fine...started it up and finished my way to work it hassent do it since but i did add some lower vis. oil to what was already in the engine. thanks for the info and i will be running a lower vis. oil.
It's an SAE Tech Paper. As I stated in another post it describes research that proves changing your oil too often (about 3k miles and under) does more harm than good.