R12 System Recharge Options

[wolfman_matt]

The system on my 92 is still set up with R12 although it must have a leak because its not working again after recharging last summer. I was lucky enough to find some R12 last summer. With it becoming more scarce is there anywhere I can find it? Is it time to go to R134 or are there alternatives? I have heard R134 will not cool in this system as well so have been trying to hold off. I'd like suggestions on which way to go. Thanks Matt

 

[hvyman]

r134 can work fine. Im using/used it in my car. Need to hook it back up. As long as the system is in working order and you have the proper converting parts and flush the system r134 will work more than fine.

 

[JDMMA70]

get your 609 you can buy r12 at napa or oreillys. Theres lots of r12 left

 

[jetjock]

^ Smart man.

OP: Maybe you should first determine exactly why your system isn't working.

 

[te72]

So where do they hide all the magical cold-sauce if there's still plenty of it left? Not a big deal for me personally, I'm more a windows down kinda guy, and considering around here the heater is used WAY more than the AC... but I'm still curious. They haven't made R12 in what, like 15 years now, if I remember correctly?

 

[fixitman04]

there is a butane based r12 replacement product called freeze 12 works great and no converting needed

 

[jetjock]

^ Ugh. I knew it wouldn't take long. Bad info...

 

[CyFi6]

there is a butane based r12 replacement product called freeze 12 works great and no converting needed

That stuff is about 80% R134A and 20% R142b anyways. If used the dryer definitely needs to be changed as the older descants can actually dissolve with the introduction of R134A, and if you develop a leak you can disproportionately lose the mixture of refrigerants. If all the R142b leaks out and just the R134A remains, you are left with nothing to carry the mineral oil = compressor death. Not to mention if the stuff leaks, you can't top it off because you don't know how much R134A leaked and how much R142b leaked.

 

[jetjock]

^ Excellent. The azeotropic nature of Freeze 12 makes it an expensive time bomb. It's inability to carry oil after the 142 is lost coupled with the loss of low pressure cut out protection will eventually result in the entire system needing a rebuild. Does it work? Yes, but if one is going to use 134 it's far better to change the oil and use 100%, thereby avoiding these problems altogether.

 

[fixitman04]

interesting...been using it for years, never had a single problem....my 89 chev has had it in its system for about 10years.. never leaked down at all. still working great..

 

[jetjock]

Your expeience is certainly possible with minimal leakage. My R12 system was 15 years old and still working fine when the car left me. The problem is even if everything else remains tight the compressor shaft seal doesn't and with F12 the 142 will escape first and other than doing a complete recover and recharge there's no way of monitoring how much remains and nothing to shut the compressor off once it's gone. You could be close to lunching the system right now.

Still, 10 years is pretty damn good. It's the first case I've heard of F12 going so long. Typical is 3-5 years. However the point remains leakage of 12 or 134 results in nothing more than an inoperable system while leakage of F12 results in lots of destruction and heavy repair costs. That applies regardless of how long any of those refrigerants have been in use.

 

[wolfman_matt]

Thanks guys for the replies. If I go to R134A what type of retrofit needs to be done?

 

[PureDrifter]

ask around your local AC shops, there's always a guy who knows a guy who knows someone's brother's uncle's girlfriend's nana who recharges cars on the side of their residential/business AC work.

 

[JDMMA70]

So where do they hide all the magical cold-sauce if there's still plenty of it left? Not a big deal for me personally, I'm more a windows down kinda guy, and considering around here the heater is used WAY more than the AC... but I'm still curious. They haven't made R12 in what, like 15 years now, if I remember correctly?

Where its hidden i dunno, but the Toyota dealer i work at can order it from Weitron its a little pricey i think $28-$34~ each for a 12oz can. Oreillys and Napa still seem to have boxes of Dupon Freon 12 stashed somewhere as thats what they seem to sell. The dealer seems to mark up the cans as you would imagine so if i were to buy it it would cost me $60 a can. However a friend in Maryland at his dealer ordered 24 cans at the cost of $20 each and im buying 4 cans off him. So id imagine theres still a lot left. The fact Jetjock can get a virgin 30lb tank is proof of that. I myself have a case of ChemWay sitting in my closet.

 

[fixitman04]

good to know... looks like il be retrofitting soon myself. to do a proper retrofit that wont leak out within a year.(the r134 molecule is much smaller than r12)you need to change all the orings in the system to a 134 compatible oring, the orifice tube needs to be changed out to a 134 tube, the drier needs to be replaced then the whole system needs to drawn down to -30hg vacuum and hold for at least 15 minutes. then and only then should it be recharged. if it wont hold vacuum it has a leak you need to find.

---------- Post added at 09:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:15 PM ----------

i have a recovery machine for capable of recovering 134,12,and 22. and a separate bottle for each. if i need freon in pack it up and go to the local junkyard (which views this as a service to them) and get some... but i do have my caro and ciro licenses.

 

[jetjock]

I bought that tank (actually bought 2) way back when all cars were 12. It was a lot cheaper then but yeah, there's lot of it still around. Even Ebay always has some although not as many 30 pounders as it once did. Btw many there will sell to anyone without a license as long as the buyer certifies it's for resale. That's 100% legal but it's better just to get a 609 and be done with it.

These days I'm thinking there may be less virgin than recycled out there, at least with the 30s, but that's just a hunch. Manufacture of the stuff is still legal in Mexico and a surprising amount of cross border smuggling goes on. I've also heard of it being smuggled in from China but the purity turns out to be crap.

 

[destrux]

The only thing to watch out for buying R12 is that the container you're buying is still full. I bought a few cans of R12 about 8 years ago at Napa and left them in my basement for a few months before I used them. They were unopened, but nearly empty when I tapped them.

Also, I've seen some junk R12 that was supposedly imported from China labeled as R134 (and then relabeled back to R12). Scary thing is, I've also heard some of it was never relabeled back to R12 and was sold as R134. There was an article in Motor magazine about this a few years ago, caused some expensive problems for some people.

I've had good results with R134 conversions... they seem to work fine to me. Alot of people undercharge them or have other problems with their system that maybe the extra cooling power of R12 made up for (clogged evaporator/condeser, or worn out compressor).

I just did a conversion on an 82 El Camino and it works great.

 

[JDMMA70]

R134 is going to be replaced soon with R1234yf anyways just saying

 

[3p141592654]

I bought a 30lb tank for $80 at Costco a long time ago. That was expensive too, for a long time it was more like $1/lb. With demand dropping for R12 the price has begun to drop too.