Oil Cooler yes or no?

[Zazzn]

Hi all,

I've been having some talks with some friends and they are against adding an additional oil cooler because of the drop in the oil pressure.

I want to do alot of road racing / auto x.

The coolers I was looking at was b&M 70272 or B&M 70297.

I wasn't sure if I should remove the stock oil water cooler....

What do you guys think?

I know of 2 people that claim the oil cooler has blown up their car due to loss pressure or other problems.

 

[Jaguar_5]

The B&M oil coolers are a very efficient design, and iirc are supposed to be zero pressure-loss

I wouldn't do it unless you remove the entire stock circuit and switch to a thermostatically controlled setup, that being said, if you do it this way and do it RIGHT, i can't see any way it would make things worse, it increases flow over the stock pressure-relief garbage, and your engine will warm up quicker

If you're concerned about surges or pressure loss, get a Accusump and you are good to go!

 

[jdub]

That's interesting, I just got a PM from a Toronto guy about the exact same subject.

Same reply:
B&M coolers are top-of-the-line IMO...there will be minimum (if any) pressure drop. If you're going high HP on this motor, I would use -10 lines and run the biggest B&M cooler you can fit. Pressure should not be your main concern, you want the best flow you can get. High pressure = resistance to flow. Do not run a thick oil, especially in the climate where you live.

Basically, Jag nailed it.

 

[WhtMa71]

Switching to a full flow thermo-controlled system will normally raise your oil pressure over running the very restrictive, stock pressure based system.

The stock filter head is basically the weak link in the system so if you're just switching the actual radiator portion, i doubt you'll see any difference in oil pressures.

 

[jdub]

Guys - according to his profile this is a 2J...iirc, the oil cooler circuit is different and uses a oil-to-coolant cooler. Still, a good oil-to-air cooler will be more efficient and a thermostat will help get the oil (and keep it) at ops temp better.

I moved this to the Other Engine Tech section...Zazzn - In the future please post in the correct section and ID the engine to avoid this confusion.

 

[WhtMa71]

Darn, I automatically thought it was a 7m..oops. Yes, different oil systems indeed. I was wondering wtf he was talking about with the oil-water cooler.

 

[tlo86]

so now he wants to know if you should remove the stock system =) i would like to know this too - i was just going to throw the bypass on it

 

[jdub]

Can you guys provide me a link to the 2J lube system description and diagram?

The answer I'm leaning to is "yes" tlo86

 

[jizake1jz]

this might be what you are looking for...about the 19th page down.
http://www.turbosupras.com/pdfs/JZA80 TSRM/LU.pdf

if not, here is the link to the main page of the tsrm
http://www.turbosupras.com/pages/en/pages/technical/a80tsrm.htm

 

[jdub]

Perfect! Thank you

Yes you can replace the stock cooler on a 2J. You will have to connect the two coolant hoses together (replace with a single hose) and get a sandwich adapter if you want to keep the filter in the same location (assuming there is sufficient head room for the plate thickness + filter length). Or, you could switch over to a remote filter set-up and cooler circuit like this thread describes:
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62838

I'm guessing the relief valve shown on the 2J is there in case the filter gets clogged...it bypasses the filter all together. This is not a problem since the bypass found in any good oil filter (I like the Wix design) will do the same thing. The advantage on the 2J for an air cooler is it will help the motor get rid of heat in addition to what the rad/coolant circuit does. The stock oil cooler system is going to limit thermal transfer to what the coolant can provide...if the coolant is hot, the oil can pick up heat (think reverse) and get the oil over 100 deg C. That is not good since oil viscosity thins significantly above it's formulated ops temp.

 

[Zazzn]

Thanks for the replies Jdub, I posted on SF and got very diff responses saying that he B&M's suck and that permacool was the way to go... I've asked for more detail why he said that and if he was just blerting out some garbage.

So you guys never heard of people nuking engines form a oil cooler? (not leaking)

The cooler's i mentioned above are at summit, what do you chaps think? is it big enough too small or just right?

I was planning to run -10 clampless house for the cooler lines.

Do you think the stock coolant cooler is any good? I have PWR rad with 2 zirgo fans a 14 and 8 "... Things really don't get toasty but I was thinking the cooler was good insurance for when I do autox and lapping days. (not super often) but on ocasion.

 

[tlo86]

im wondering if we need a new bolt from the block to the oil filter or we can still use the other.. sandwich plate would work but you still need tiny hands to fit your arm under there to get the filter off hehe. remote ftw

 

[jdub]

Zazzn - If that guy is like some I see around here, the PermaCool is better because he's using one
I bet he's not running a thermostat to the cooler either...bad move if I'm correct. Send me the link to the thread...I'd like some amusement today.

The stacked plate coolers (like B&M) are superior IMO...better thermal transfer due to the internal oil channel area afforded by the plates and much more resistant to damage (think rocks) that will easily bend the fins on a the tube/fine type like PermaCool. And, PermaCool products are cheap for a reason

There's no way using an oil cooler is going to cause an engine to develop rod knock, seize, etc due to oil pressure loss. Like I said, I would run the biggest oil cooler I can fit...use a thermostat to control the temps/flow to the cooler. For most applications a 180 deg stat is what you want...for road course work a 160 will keep the oil temps down. What you are looking for are oil temps in the 88-100 deg C range. I like the Mocal thermostats.

The problem with the stock cooler design is it is in the rad/coolant circuit. That is going to limit the thermal transfer from the oil to the coolant due to the circuit's primary function of keeping the motor cool. Your PWR radiator is going to increase overall system capacity and that will help keep oil temps down. The problem is if coolant temps go over 100 deg C...the effect on oil viscosity is not linear...oil thins pretty quickly as it gets hot. The air-to-oil coolers do not have this problem and, with a thermostat, keeps the oil temp at where it needs to be. Also, because it's on a different circuit it will help the radiator to remove heat produced by the engine.

One advantage of the stock system is it will get the oil up to ops temp quickly...that is exactly what you want...the motor is designed to run with oil viscosity at 100 deg C. At temps below that, any oil is thicker (especially in cold climates) and does not flow as well. This is the purpose of running a thermostat per the above discussion. If the stock system had it's own coolant circuit (small rad and pump) it would be very efficient...it's the stock system coolant temps that cut efficiency.

The decision to remove the stock system is your Zazzn. Does it work well...yes, it does (much better than a 7M), but that is on a car designed for the street from the factory without any mods (higher HP).




tlo86 - it looks like the 2JZ-GTE motor has an oil cooler and the 2JZ-GE does not. I'm betting there's an oil filter stud similar to the 7M-GE motor that screws into the block...this would allow the use of a 2 port adapter plate that would eliminate the stock oil cooler and allow routing to a remote filter head. You'll have to look at the EPC.

 

[jizake1jz]

i just put an oil cooler on my 1jz. i bought the adapter fitting from the ge thinking that would work to bolt the plate to the block....but it was too short. now i'm not sure about the 2j, but on the 1jz the threads on the block sit in too far as compared to the outer rim. i had to cut the stock bolt and use that as my adapter.

let me know if this makes sense, otherwise i can take a pic.

 

[jdub]

If you're talking about a sandwich plate, that is probably true. If you're using an adapter to run lines to a remote filter though, it should screw on just like an oil filter would on a GE motor.

 

[IJ.]

A bud showed me one of these awhile back, interesting concept "IF" you have excess cooling capacity in the Radiator, if not you're just adding to the thermal load.

Ideal situation would be the B&M mounted in the airstream away from the Coolant radiator just not practical in a Mk3 so it will come down to temp rise from the O2W cooler V's the O2A>Rad.

 

[tlo86]

A bud showed me one of these awhile back, interesting concept "IF" you have excess cooling capacity in the Radiator, if not you're just adding to the thermal load.

Ideal situation would be the B&M mounted in the airstream away from the Coolant radiator just not practical in a Mk3 so it will come down to temp rise from the O2W cooler V's the O2A>Rad.

so water cooled oil will be at a higher temp than a air cooled oil? with a stock mkiii radiator
maybe i got confused hehe

 

[IJ.]

Your engine produces xx BTU's of energy at xx hp.

The cooling system can disipate xx btu's this is set in concrete.

Most cooling systems have xx overhead.

The O2W Cooler just uses some of this excess capacity to keep the Oil at the water jacket temp.

If you're marginal on cooling capacity this may be enough to cause issues but having said this the Mk3 doesn't have anywhere to mount an O2A cooler that isn't directly in the Radiator's airstream so you'll still transfer some of the heat to the Radiator using one.

 

[jdub]

What happens is the heat dissipated by the oil-to-air cooler is air-flowed directly to the radiator, reducing it's ability to dissipate heat, thus reducing radiator efficiency. Even then, the heat transferred to the coolant by the oil-to-water cooler is likely greater. Using a PWR radiator should provide the excess capacity needed in either case.

 

[tlo86]

so you guys are saying there is not a good spot for the oil cooler ~ how about behind the fog? the fan/air scoop like setup? :biglaugh: something like that