New Mark III

sil_ver.dra_gon

Sil_Ver.Dra_Gonilly
Apr 2, 2006
3
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On my computer
Hey all. I'm from The Wet Coast in Canada, and Im going to be picking up a mark3 supra tomorrow (april 3rd). She's a beaut. '89 N/A 5spd with new rad, brakes, clutch & tires for...yep...u got it. $500. All it needs is a HG and a stereo. As of now, it's in Ghetto Transport Mode. So yeah, pics will follow.
Oh yeah, thanks for having me!
 

johnathan1

Supra =
Aug 19, 2005
5,056
1
36
36
Downey, California, United States
Wendigo: WTF???

sil ver dra gon: If the car has a BHG, you'd better pray that coolant didn't get into the oil and toast the rod bearings... sad, but common... How many Miles?? That seems kinda low for that car, even with a BHG, it must have something more serious wrong w/ it?
 

sil_ver.dra_gon

Sil_Ver.Dra_Gonilly
Apr 2, 2006
3
0
0
On my computer
Hahaha funny story...i'm buying the car off of a mechanic who owns an auto shop so I'm hoping he knows wat he's talking about. Cause if not...hmmm. Oh, well. I was going to put in a MHG anyways. Forged internals eventually, performance cam, i.e. 12s N/A supra.
 

Supracentral

Active Member
Mar 30, 2005
10,542
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johnathan1 said:
If the car has a BHG, you'd better pray that coolant didn't get into the oil and toast the rod bearings... sad, but common... How many Miles?? That seems kinda low for that car, even with a BHG, it must have something more serious wrong w/ it?

I take issue with this statement. You are woefully misinformed.

The normal BHG failure on the 7M block is to fail between the cylinders and the water jacket. It's extremely rare that a 7M ever gets coolant in the oil. This is the reason for the "waterfall sound" in the dashboard and the infamous low coolant light. Compression from the cylinders pushes the coolant out into the overflow and onto the ground. Water mixing with oil is almost unheard of with this engine.

For many people a BHG is a major issue. According to KBB the car is only worth $1900. When they look at going to a dealership (and paying a large portion of what the car is worth according to the blue book value) to get it fixed, they figure it is not worth it and they sell it off cheap. The mechanic probably feels the same way.

Why are you trying to scare a new owner with a statistically insignificant issue?
 

johnathan1

Supra =
Aug 19, 2005
5,056
1
36
36
Downey, California, United States
Supracentral said:
I take issue with this statement. You are woefully misinformed.

The normal BHG failure on the 7M block is to fail between the cylinders and the water jacket. It's extremely rare that a 7M ever gets coolant in the oil. This is the reason for the "waterfall sound" in the dashboard and the infamous low coolant light. Compression from the cylinders pushes the coolant out into the overflow and onto the ground. Water mixing with oil is almost unheard of with this engine.

For many people a BHG is a major issue. According to KBB the car is only worth $1900. When they look at going to a dealership (and paying a large portion of what the car is worth according to the blue book value) to get it fixed, they figure it is not worth it and they sell it off cheap. The mechanic probably feels the same way.

Why are you trying to scare a new owner with a statistically insignificant issue?

Jeez...sorry about that then, I have seen a few Supras with this problem, especially at the junkyard, and I have read about it online more times than I can count... Milky oil is a symptom of a BHG, is it not? From what I understand, coolant seeps into the cylinder when the car is off, and leaks down the walls, past the rings, mixing with the oil. Is this correct?

I was just trying to let him know that it has been a typical BHG related problem in the past, or, according to you, it is not...

As for the value...whatever.
 

Supracentral

Active Member
Mar 30, 2005
10,542
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johnathan1 said:
Milky oil is a symptom of a BHG, is it not? From what I understand, coolant seeps into the cylinder when the car is off, and leaks down the walls, past the rings, mixing with the oil. Is this correct?

In automobiles in general, a blown head gasket often mixes water and oil. However in the 7M this is not the common case in my experience.

The BHG usually pushes enough coolant out of the system so that the cylinder head really doesn't have any water in it to leak into the cylinders. Also, the leak usually only happens under high pressure and at atmospheric pressures, it doesn't leak at all. Additionally, if your piston rings are so bad that they can't hold a small amount of water under no pressure, the engine would barely run.

I've owned (and have worked on) these cars for over 16 years now, and the type of BHG you are describing (although common in other cars) is not as common with the 7M.

johnathan1 said:
As for the value...whatever.

One thing to understand is I'm not passing a value judgment on the car. To enthusiasts like us, we know the true value. (Hell, KBB says my 1995 Hardtop is only worth 14k, and it would sell for more than twice that in a day) However to someone who thinks it is "just a car" - to them a BHG probably means selling it off as junk.
 

GrimJack

Administrator
Dec 31, 1969
12,377
3
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56
Richmond, BC, Canada
idriders.com
I'm going to back Mike up on this. I blew my stock head gasket deep into the water jackets on all 6 cylinders, AND blew the rings and ringlands on one piston so bad that blowby was pushing the oil dipstick out of the block at idle. Eventually the upper rad hose couldn't take the pressure and blew apart, spilling coolant everywhere and overheating the engine instantly.

My oil was still nice after this, no milkshake to speak of. It was black from all the blowby, of course, and full of metal shavings from the dead piston and rings, but that's it.
 

Supracentral

Active Member
Mar 30, 2005
10,542
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I guess understanding the mechanics of the 7M BHG has a lot to do with it.

I've run 22 to 25 psi on a factory head gaskets for years at a time. (This is not to say I don't run MHG's - anytime I get the head off a MKIII it gets a MHG - it's extra insurance.) However I have run on stock gaskets without trouble. The 7M actually doesn't have a weak headgasket. This is a proven fact. Where the BHG problem comes in is Toyota's torque spec for the factory head bolts.

The manuals say the stock torque value is 58 ft/lbs, this is the primary design flaw in the MKIII Supra. Myself and others have tested the head bolts and torque spec of 58 ft/lbs is way too low.

What this means that 7M head bolts when torqued to the factory specifications of 52 to 58 ft. lbs. is in very low tension related to the bolts actual yield curve.

The 7M head bolt is:
12mm-1.25mm thread pitch
Property Class: 10.9 grade 8
yield strength=147,353 PSI
tensile strength=160,550 PSI

By calculating the unit strain for the bolts based on the average yield strength, elongation numbers were calculated by Reg Reimer years ago. What he came up with was that the 7M bolt has a total elongation of .0134" {.3399mm}.

The test data shows that to get the proper bolt elongation, the torque values for the 7M head and bolts is in the 68 though 72 ft. lb range without putting the bolt into the plastic region.

What all if this mean is that that as the motor expands and contracts, the bolts (when torqued to the factory spec) actually work themselves loosen over time. Without the firm clamping force of head to block, the gasket inside "slides" around during this expansion & contraction. Take a look at 7M gasket. The thinnest points are between the compression chambers & the water jacket - this is why they fail here 1st under this scenario.

I know a lot of you guys are new to these cars, and others have been around for a couple of years, and a lot of the questions you guys come up with were asked and answered YEARS ago.
 

bigaaron

Supramania Contributor
Apr 12, 2005
4,692
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Pomona, CA
www.driftmotion.com
I don't know where you guys have been, but I have personally fixed several 7m-gte's that had coolant in the oil. It depends on how long the car was driven with a bhg, and how bad the circumstances were that caused it. Yes, exhaust gas in the coolant is more common, but oil and coolant can and do mix on 7m's with bhg's. Go to any junk yard and you will see a 7m with milky crap in the oil cap and then drain the oil and see coolant come out.
 
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Allan_MA70

Banned
May 1, 2005
1,055
0
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Melbourne, Australia
yes it will build up enough pressure in the cooling system to push what little water is left into an oil drain, but by this stage you can be assured the head is well toasted and soft, thus time for a replacement head