NA Pistons and cams in a Turbo motor?

[CSquared]

Anybody doing this? What kind of mods? What kind of power? Reliability?

If anyone has seen my last thread, they know my car went down with rod knock. I am supposed to pick up a running turbo motor and head on sunday and was planning on doing a bs rebuild (bearings, rings, all gaskets/seals, MHG/studs, and machine work).

I am way too low on funds to build a motor that I'd like to have in this car indefinitely and it's going to be at least a year or so before I can afford that... Being that this is my daily, i was thinking about building this temporary BS motor and riding it out while I built one for my final goal (500+hp).

These are all my current mods (running about 12lbs):
-Full 3 inch turbo back exhaust (hks drager, BIC DDP, and test pipe)
-Blitz intake will cooleeze intake pipe
-Cooleeze intercooler hard pipes
-greddy type-s bov

These are what I plan on adding (most of it sitting in my closet):
-aeromotive afpr
-lexus afm
-j-tube blockoff
-walbro 255 fp
-RC 550's
-safc2
-intercooler
-tune
-57 trim ct26 (MAYBE down the road)

So i was thinking about adding the NA pistons and cams on top of that in hopes that I'd get some better response and grunt... I've read about detonation issues but i hadn't seen anybody in those threads that actually tried it (specifically the pistons... I know people have run the cams pretty successfully).

I'd definitely like some input with the NA cams and pistons in my 7mgte... How people think it would respond power and reliability wise... and would definitely like to hear from someone who may have tried something similar.

Discuss :icon_bigg

 

[Quin]

NA pistons will raise compression and make the car faster off boost and allow it to build boost faster. NA exhaust cams are epic fails, NA intake cam will give more bottom end but kill top end. Gixxer750 made 350rw on a stock CT26 with NA pistons and intake cam and a slight head shave to up compression even more. Personally, I'd stick with turbo cams, but that's up to you. All the mods in your closet would do just fine (350-400rw with a good tune), I'm not sure where you'd be with NA pistons added in to the mix.

 

[pimptrizkit]

im running n/a cams

have more mods then you have listed.. but eh..

for the stock ct the n/a cams almost cant be beat..

i will run the cams while i have a 57trm ct on the car and if power falls off ontop i'll pick up a set of 272's and go from there. i would try the cams and 57trim but i dont think it would work out to great.. i'll be purchasing them for my next build that my 4088 will sit on.




it's not an issue of not being able to put the n/a pistons into the motor,

it's just most like the lower compression for high boost,

some things to know..,

you'll need higher octane gas. 92's barely cutting it under 12psi.. maybe not cutting it i haven't tried.
you would need to upgrade with a mhg, stocker would last if carefull,



your turbo would spool faster,

stock turbo would probaly choke out faster.

 

[TRACKMKIII]

I have been thinking about trying N/A pistos in a turbo block too. (It must be the Georgia air that has us thinkin alike LOL!!) I think it would be more reliable than just a NA-T because of the oil squirters and the fact that there are 2 knocks sensor spots avaliable plus the oil lines are there already. As far as the N/A cams vs the turbo cams i think there dyno graphs comparing the two. I think the response with the higher C/R will be great and there should be less turbo lag. I think the biggest challenge with the N/A pistons will be tuning to fight detonation that is why I am going to be running the AEM ems. I don't think the Lex AFM and the 550's with be good enough to fight detonation at higher the stock boost pressures with the higher C/R.

 

[Dan_Gyoba]

Um... NA exhaust cams are identical to the turbo exhaust cams. They're the same part. The intake cams are timed for more overlap, and move the power curve down somewhat. Good for all-round driving, but less top-end power.

The NA pistons raise the compression ratio. That means that you're faster off-boost, but more limited for how much boost you can run. Personally, I'd stick to under 10 PSI, but I'm more reliability concious than some. Certainly you won't be running 18-20 PSI like some are.

I looked into this at one point as well, in addition to turboing my NA motor. My thought at the time was to swap in the CPS, AFM, manifold and turbo from a GTE, and run it on the GTE ECU, but keep the NA longblock.

 

[supra_kid101]

Wow i'm the only guy with N/A cams and pistons in a GTE block?! This is cool lol!!! Anyway I have a 2mm MHG and ARP's along with N/A pistons and N/A cams. Detonation isn't a problem as I'm running 13psi on 89 octane. I get full boost as 2800rpm on a shimmed ct26 and 3" turbo back exhaust. I love the car.

 

[CSquared]

Wow i'm the only guy with N/A cams and pistons in a GTE block?! This is cool lol!!! Anyway I have a 2mm MHG and ARP's along with N/A pistons and N/A cams. Detonation isn't a problem as I'm running 13psi on 89 octane. I get full boost as 2800rpm on a shimmed ct26 and 3" turbo back exhaust. I love the car.

Mind listing all your mods? (specifically the fuel management)

Any idea how much power you're putting down or what you're running at the track?

That would be awesome.

 

[Rennat]

kid101 what do you have to monitor your fuel ratio?

 

[CSquared]

Yeah i mean I am definitely aware of the overall effect the na pistons will have on the motor (raising compression... building boost faster)... and I also know that lower compression is better on boost applications.

I know the na cam kills the top end a little bit so I'm definitely not as interested in that as I am the pistons (which I assume would be an all around gain at the same boost levels).

As far as gas... I only run 93 in my car... and a metal headgasket will most definitely be in the new motor.

I've seen quite a few people toy with the idea of na cams in a turbo block but i'd really like to hear some first hand experience (with numbers).

Maybe it is something in the georgia air... ha.

 

[turbodriz]

Nothing wrong with the idea. I have a friend that ran 10:1 flattops on a honda with a t-66. The motor was built but I have the experience to give u some sound advice. With a very good tune I can see you running 18 psi on race fuel. I will repeat my self good tune. With the higher compression you are more proned to detonation. Good tune and anything is possiable. Have everything balanced. Have the rods well prepped. It can be done.

 

[turbodriz]

Oh yeah, Cooling system. You will find that it will run a little hotter than usual because of the higher cylinder pressure. You might want to upgrade the rad.

 

[CSquared]

The most boost I'd be looking to run would be about 14lbs.

I can't imagine there would be that much difference in the operating temperature considering it's only a change from 8.4 to 9.2.

 

[supra_kid101]

Ok guys heres my breakdown....

Fuel System - 100% stock for the time being
For fuel ratio I have an narrowband a/f...lol I know it's not smart to do but i'm broke and it stays in rich during WOT. I am about to add a Q45 fuel pump just as reassurance of fuel pressure. I'm shooting for 15-17psi. As for power i'm not really sure. Theres no dynos or 1/4 mile tracks around. Also I have a boost leak right now.

Heres all my mods:
3" turbo back exhaust (now open downpipe), shimmed wastegate @13psi, 2mm MHG, ARP studs, N/A internals, N/A cams, and a Greddy Type R BOV. I'm adding the Q45 soon and hard piping 1ggte style for my FMIC. Then i'll buy an AFPR and add a Holset HX40 maybe. I'm still in shock to be the only one to try this. It's a fun car.

Oh yeah, Cooling system. You will find that it will run a little hotter than usual because of the higher cylinder pressure. You might want to upgrade the rad.

I have a new OEM replacement radiator on the car. The underhood temps are a lot lower than the N/A engine the internals came from. If I had to guess power i'd say a little over 300ish. I'll start looking for a dyno around here (gotta be one in Knoxville somewhere) and get some numbers for you guys. Also i'll go to an 1/8 mile track (all we got around here unless I drive 100 miles to Bristol.

 

[Nomad707]

i had a NA intake cam on my turbo auto.. it made full boost way down low and took off like a beast.

 

[turbodriz]

The most boost I'd be looking to run would be about 14lbs.

I can't imagine there would be that much difference in the operating temperature considering it's only a change from 8.4 to 9.2.

That is not high compression.

 

[CSquared]

Yeah but apparently people think there are going to be some detonation/reliability issues... I suppose i'd rather have reliability.

 

[Nomad707]

i was using the cams and i had no issues....

 

[Neal]

supra kid: What computer are you using

 

[supraguru05]

im pretty impressed with the low end response from my na cam. but the lack of power above 5000 rpms makes the cams not worth it. in order to verify the power fall off i feel in the butt dyno i need to go to a actual dyno and make sure its as bad as i think. for reference there is a thread somewhere with comparative dyno pulls between a turbo and na cam

 

[cruisnhard]

The compression should be fine with the na pistons. Like stated above it only goes up to 9.2:1. There are a lot of others running 9:to one and higher on decent boost. This should not bring that much if any at all detonation.