Mysterious Trans/Clutch problem. Now know what it is...R154 (new pics)

[IwantMKIII]

NEW: it appears on my 200 mile journey back to school last night (about 2/5 of the way home) I lost First gear in the process. My guess would have to be large metal particles getting caught in the existing gears causing the loud noises and violent vibrations. It also explains my inabililty to reproduce the noise.

Ill be flushing it out today in hopes it will last me an additional 300 miles. Hopefully the damage isn't too much to make it. I find it strange since its been rebuilt. My guess would be the combination of hard clutch and poor hydraulic system. From slamming the gear into second maybe the clutch wasn't disengaged enough causing first gear to be damaged.

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Problem is definitely progressive. This is NOT just a clutch master/slave problem. Original thread and suggested (by myself) fix here:
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96620


What I know/symptoms:

-I can cause a violent jerking while in motion.
-Occurred while driving when shifting hard into second
-Occurs IN NEUTRAL. (NOT the jerking, just the noise)
-The noise while in neutral has a few different noises, its moody i guess. One sounds like a knocking/tapping noise. I can feel it through the gas pedal, lower pitch. The other noise is much louder and very rare to hear. Very audible knocking and is periodical. Both noises go away when clutch pedal is PUSHED IN.
-Clutch engages just fine.
-Clutch does NOT slip.
-I noticed the periodic noise can be slightly reproduced while very very slowly engaging the clutch in gear with one foot on the brake, it only is audible with a certain amount of pressure, however not loud.
-Clutch master DOES leak but has worked a long time now
-Slave was replaced within last 10K
-There have now been 2 instances where the clutch pedal stuck to the floor but it can be lifted back up and pressure is restored. I don't believe is hydraulic issue (though i know i have one).
-I cannot reproduce the louder noise at will
-Trans has been rebuilt at one point in its life, probably within the past 25K if i had a random guess.


What ive checked:

-Removed bellhousing plates
-made sure all PP bolts were to spec (all were)
-Pried the PP/flywheel against the bellhousing to see if maybe the flywheel bolts snapped, they were ok.
-All the fingers appear ok
-Clutch fork is in good condition

What to look at now is my question??

[thumb]http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/2083/1002087.jpg[/thumb][thumb]http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/2073/1002086.jpg[/thumb][thumb]http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/9086/1002085.jpg[/thumb][thumb]http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/9660/1002084.jpg[/thumb][thumb]http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/4397/1002088.jpg[/thumb]

[youtube]QMv5gaZ3-sg[/youtube]

 

[Mk3runner]

Trans. What else could itbe.

 

[jimi87-t]

If this was going on in one of my cars, the first thing I would think, was it's the clutch itself.

Long time ago I had a clutch throw a spring, it would bang every now and then, and throw off the alignment of the clutch making it kind of wobble and vibrate badly. And on top of that the spring that was thrown would rattle around like a quarter in a clothes dryer every now and then.

 

[gaboonviper85]

I myself can't see how a clutch pedal could stick to the floor AND still within that stroke release the clutch AND still retain fluid....so yeah I'd definetly rule out a hydrolic issue!

Dude I'm so stuck as to what this could be! Sucks cause it's obvious it's not a cheap fix...new clutch...new flywheel...another trans...it's a shame the system is so simple that it really doesn't leave room for it to be a simple small part...everything in that area is $$$!

 

[gaboonviper85]

If this was going on in one of my cars, the first thing I would think, was it's the clutch itself.

Long time ago I had a clutch throw a spring, it would bang every now and then, and throw off the alignment of the clutch making it kind of wobble and vibrate badly. And on top of that the spring that was thrown would rattle around like a quarter in a clothes dryer every now and then.

The stock clutch in my na did that although it wasn't a spring, it's a solid rubber damper....it would wedge itself between the pp and disk causing it to be very hard to shift and get into gear without grinding!

 

[IwantMKIII]

I guess maybe the disk could be busted up with a loose piece rattling around i don't know.

Usually tyler (gaboonviper) and I can figure out just about any problem but this is pretty much pushing me to a dead end everytime. I'm NOT at home which makes this very difficult.

*calling SM experts* any input/opinions?

 

[jimi87-t]

The only way to actually know is to pull the trany, remove the PP, and inspect the clutch. PITA in your situation, but no matter what it is, you need to pull the trany.

 

[gaboonviper85]

Adam...as not cool as it sounds...every idea is still just an idea and nobody will know for sure what the issue is untill 1. Either it finally breaks (probably causing more damage) 2. You drop the trans and find the problem:-(.

Supras hate you Adam....HATE YOU!!

 

[IJ.]

Broken pivot ring in the PP

Failed or failing Mainshaft snout and bearing

 

[montego6500]

how long have u had the disc in. could (by a slim chance) the disc be in backwards just a suggsetion. other than that good luck fixing it

 

[IwantMKIII]

Broken pivot ring in the PP

Failed or failing Mainshaft snout and bearing

this is something i was looking for, thanks. Something i have no idea what they are lol. Short of obvious meanings that is. Google here i come.

 

[IwantMKIII]

found this for future reference about a pivot ring. I'm on a MAC so i don't know how to crop it lol. Very good book on google by the way, at least what i browsed through and saw. The whole book is online just a limited view of images is all.

IJ, where would this fail typically?

As far as the bearing is concerned, is there a way to test this if the trans is pulled? Is it obvious to tell? By main snout bearing i assume you mean the bearing held on the R154 by a plate with 8 bolts seen here: http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/manual.aspx?S=MT&P=52

 

[Mk3runner]

Bearing play is easy to tell. Bearings spin, notside to side and spin.

Regardless trans gotta come out. Have parts on standby, do those clutch setups use stock bearings?

 

[IJ.]

Tap the PP on the ground if it rattles it has a broken ring
(I worked in the industry as a kid)

To check for mainshaft wear idle the car in neutral and listen for a grumble noise then press the clutch, if the noise dies down or stops you know the needle roller on the snout is gone.

 

[IwantMKIII]

^this 'grumble' noise. Is it constant like grinding? or is it like a tap/on and off noise?

As for tapping the PP on the ground. Does it only make the noise without the tension, ie out of the car/uninstalled?

 

[IJ.]

It's hard to describe and variable but anything from a clunks/rattle to a mild grumble, yes the PP needs to be out of the car to test.

 

[IwantMKIII]

It's hard to describe and variable but anything from a clunks/rattle to a mild grumble, yes the PP needs to be out of the car to test.

argh, looks like ill be stuck in Charleston, WV a lot longer than i hoped. Good thing the GF's family is nice and will help out if i really need it.

If it is a ring, will it progressively get worse or once its broken its broken kind of deal?

edit: riddle me this IJ. Why would these problems effect the clutch pedal getting stuck down. I mean i know my master is leaking a bit (it has for 9 months now, its a very very slow leak) and all but i definitely have pressure 99.9999% of the time and the only time this has happened is since this noise started so somehow this must be related. Ideas?

 

[black89t]

does it sound like gear wine while in neutral? do any other gears make noise? is it under load or not?


a failed mainshaft snout/bearing will make a wine/grumble mainly in 3rd gear under load because all the torque is going from the input shaft, to the counter shaft, then to the end of the output shaft(mainshaft) causing the gears to slightly unmesh making a noise. 3rd gear is by far the weakest gear in just about any rwd tranny because the counter shaft has the most leverage on the output shaft while in 3rd.

 

[IwantMKIII]

^actually ive developed a slight whine in 1st gear very low in RPM's under minimal to normal load.

 

[black89t]

well its really hard to say, but i would note all the noise and when they happen. there's another thread in the general section where i said what to look for. then pull the tranny and hope that its the clutch. if not then you don't really have many options but to get a used tranny or rebuild the one you have. and if you have time a video clip of the noise with the clutch in at idle then out a idle will tell a lot.