Maft Q's

suprra_girl

7M POWAH! ;)
Mar 30, 2005
1,776
1
0
Auckland, New Zealand
www.supra.co.nz
hey ya'll... after reading some threads on here and sf i was pretty much sold on the maft and was gonna buy one once i got the car running and tuned etc

i voiced my opinion on our nz mailing list and this statement was made... whats your opinion of this... maft users... what do you think?

That is actually quite funny, considering how full of s*** they are.
Where to start...
The Mk.3 7M-GTE supra has one of the least restrictive and most
accurate AFMs there is, the KV AFM. Hotwire sensors are much slower
and less accurate, and they CANNOT be used post-turbo (or intercooler)
with any accuracy as they are not pressure compensated. oops..
I assume they expect you to hack away at the settings in this thing to
try and get a reasonable compensated mixture, which is going to be
very hit and miss.

Always be very wary of buying japanese car 'upgrades' from places that
specialise in tuning american pushrod V8s.. there is about 40 years of
technology difference between the two.

The only AFM upgrade that makes any sensor on the 7M-GTE is the lexus
AFM, and then only because its size happens to allow for 550cc
injectors to move the boost limit up.
 

socc924

Member
Mar 31, 2005
396
0
16
40
CT and Philly
I was always under the impression that the Air flow meter from the 7mgte was better then the Mass Air Sensor from the 7mge. I unforunately do not have any experience with the MAFT. I would also think that as long as you monitored the A/F ratio and had fuel tuning devices that the MAFT provides more opportunity.
 

lagged

1991 1JZ
Mar 30, 2005
2,616
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38
new rochelle
another 86.5 turbo mkiii! you coming to ETOWN?

on topic post follows:

some people are weary of the MAFT as it simply caps the intake temperature input to the computer (like the VPC?).

im NO expert, but i dont know how much an affect that has, as the ACTUAL intake air at the manifold is going to be different (after being compressed, then fed through the intercooler) anyway so...

also, do your own research. what i have just said might be off. i havent had any experience using a MAFT, nor have i read any white papers on it. only information from other peoples posts on the subject.
 
B

Boostaddctn

Guest
Someone better tell this to the DSM guys... aight peace :chicken:
 

GrimJack

Administrator
Dec 31, 1969
12,377
3
38
56
Richmond, BC, Canada
idriders.com
I think I'd advise you to stop taking advise from this guy on your mailing list, because he's wrong in so many ways. :)

He is correct in that the Mk3 7M-GTE Supra has one of the least restrictive AFMs out there. Even so, the MAFT is better, by a significant margin. For proof, see this picture I took: http://idriders.com/temp/MAFT/IMG_3775.jpg - notice that the inlet appears to be almost the same size, however, the MAF doesn't get smaller halfway along it's length.

I can't speak to the accuracy of hotwire sensors being less accurate, but I can speak to them being used post turbo - they can, and are, used post turbo with great success. They are not slower, either, as a matter of fact they are faster, I've proven this with my own testing by monitoring the frequency that both sensors output on my car. Pressure compensated? WTF? A Mass Air Flow sensor measures air mass directly, it doesn't need pressure to get an accurate reading.

Getting a reasonable mixture with the MAFT is dead simple. Most Supras - mine included - you just plug it in with the suggested settings and you are DONE.

His advice on shopping at places that specialize in american pushrod V8s is wise advice - now if he'd gone a step further, he would have noticed that FullThrottleSpeed only makes parts for:
- Toyota Supra
- Subaru WRX
- Buick Grand National
- Mitsubishi Eclipse
- Plymouth Laser
- Eagle Talon
- Corvette LS1 / LT1
From that list there is ONE american big displacement muscle motor... and the Corvette engine is hardly a conventional pushrod V8.

Bottom line: He's wrong, on so many levels it's pretty obvious to me that he is spouting someone else's advice like it was handed to him by the Pope himself.
 

Shawndude

New Member
Mar 30, 2005
196
0
0
Van BC
Grim's got it covered. :bowdown:

But for the record.

Stock "vortex" AFM meter:
-Reads only the speed of air.
-Needs separate pressue and temperature sensors to allow the ECU to calculate air mass.

MAF (mass air flow meter):
-Reads air mass directly.
-Doesn't need pressure and temperature sensors for proper readings.

Stock AFM will not hold a candle to the flow of a 3-5/8" MAF. I'm too lazy to dig out the flow readings though, for someone who obviously is talking out their ass.
 

suprafredde

New Member
Apr 21, 2005
160
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48
South of sweden
Soon to install my MAFT.

Cars with MAF from the factory have a sequence, before or after driving I`m not sure, where the wires gets heated up to burn of crap like dust or oil and stuff. Do we have that feature? For me this is important if I`m going suck or blow-thru. Probably suck-thru with a big ass paper filter, that can`t go wrong.

suprafredde
 

malloynx

Member
Mar 30, 2005
877
2
16
44
NC
hey grim, did you ever get that fuel cut issue worked out. i was also following your thread over at FTT.
 

suprra_girl

7M POWAH! ;)
Mar 30, 2005
1,776
1
0
Auckland, New Zealand
www.supra.co.nz
and so the saga continues lol

Having looked at the reply about the MAFT..
They really need to do a bit more homework.

The MAFT is certainly not going to be LESS restrictive than the stock
AFM, just look at that fine mesh screen built in, that is going to be
very restrictive.

Also, Hotwire is a rather slow method of measuring air flow, for a
number of reasons, however the primary one is that it works by lessing
the passing air cool a bit of wire (the hot wire..), and adjusting the
drive current to keep the wire at a gien heat, therefore more current
for more cooling, and therefre a measure of the flowing air. The
problem is that the wre has a lot of thermal resistance, and air is a
rather poor thermal conductor... so things change slowly.
KV directly measures the passnig air mass as it creates vorticies
behind the bar in front of the sensor, and has no 'inertia' to work
against.

Now, as to working post turbo, the big probem with this is that a raw
hotwire is NOT an air mass sensor, it is an air thermal load sensor,
and they are designed to work with air that DOES NOT SIGNIFICANTLY
CHANGE IN TEMPERATURE, now, remember that your turbo heats up the air
significantly as it compresses it.. see a problem? hot wires usually
compensatr by having an (even slower) ambient air temperature sensor
(not in the intake air flow), but this will not work well when the
internal intake air changes temperature rapidly.

Who ever is marketing these things should really do a bit more homework.

Of course, if you had to get a new AFM and could not get a second hand
stock one, this is probably workable, but advantageous? I think not.

Also, I myself would just put the $200US towards a lexus AFM/550cc
upgrade, which IS going to flow higher than either of them, and hads
the advantage of actually gaining you something.
 

Shawndude

New Member
Mar 30, 2005
196
0
0
Van BC
suprra_girl said:
and so the saga continues lol
No, not really. Arguing with retards on the internet is like, well like waste of time and stuff. Even if you win, you still wasted all your time.
 

GrimJack

Administrator
Dec 31, 1969
12,377
3
38
56
Richmond, BC, Canada
idriders.com
Oh. My. God. Well, I'll give him this, he sticks to his guns.

So, on to his points.

The fine mesh screen in the MAF isn't an issue. First of all, it's constructed of a VERY fine mesh, so it doesn't block much, if at all. Second, it's not required - you can cut it out and sand down the edges where it was connected if you like, it doesn't affect the reading at all, unlike a karmen vortex based air flow meter, which has a screen and requires it to work. Thirdly, I bought the smallest one available, simply because it fits in the stock accordian hose - the largest is 3 and 5/8 of an inch across.

Lets do the math here.

Stock AFM is rectangular, 2.75 x 1.5 inches at it's smallest point. This is 4.125 square inches.
The 3 inch diameter MAF that I use has a cross section of 7.07 square inches.
The 3 1/2 inch diameter MAF that is easily available has a cross section of 9.62 square inches.
The 3 5/8 inch diameter MAF has a cross section of 10.32 square inches.

How can anyone seriously think that 10.32 square inches flows less than 4.125, even with a mesh in there?

Next, we have my real world testing. I purchased one of these, wired it in, and set it to the default settings. On the road, I spool at *exactly* the same RPM. So, if this is an intake restriction, it's the same as the stock AFM.

His description of how MAF sensors work is right on the money - until he starts explaining why it's slow, then it wanders. I don't know why it's fast, I just know it is, because I monitored the pins 1 & 3 on the stock AFM and watched how fast the readings changed, then watched *exactly* the same pins off the MAFT with the MAF hooked up, and saw how fast those readings changed. Both these tests were done on the same day, within 20 minutes of each other, no significant temp changes or any other changes made to the car. The AFM reacts much slower than the MAF. These findings are not unique to me, Shawndude remarked on them when he was beta testing this unit as well.

KV directly measures the passnig air mass as it creates vorticies behind the bar in front of the sensor, and has no 'inertia' to work against.

KV does NOT measure passing air mass. It measures the speed of the air by detecting the frequency of the vortices. Then it uses two other sensors, an ambient pressure sensor (in the ECU for 89+ ECUs, or external but close to the ECU in the 88- ECUs) and an air temp sensor (in the stock AFM, IIRC) to calculate the mass of the air going into the engine. I've no idea what inertia has to do with this.

As to working post turbo...

First, it works. There are several Supra members running it this way, and literally hundreds of DSM owners doing so as well. DSM's use the same stock karmen vortex AFM type as we do, and the MAFT has been available for them much longer than it has for the Supra.

Second, a MAF *IS* a Mass Air Flow sensor, that's why it's called a Mass Air Flow sensor. It measures the mass of air directly. There is a good description of MAFs here: http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h34.pdf, which clearly explains how ambient temperature is taken into consideration inside the sensor itself.

Whoever is trying to debunk the MAFT should really do a bit more homework.

He leaves out the other benefits as well - the fact that this will allow you to tune your WOT settings to use your stock 440cc injectors to the 400 rwhp that they are capable of. The fact that it comes with a built in Fuel Cut defender. The fact that it allows you to use any size injectors you wish, well, up to 1020cc, anyhow. The fact that it costs about half what a Lexus AFM and 550cc injectors do.

Tell you what, Suze - buy one of these, tune it well, and take it to the track. That's all the proof you'll need. Hell, wait a few weeks and I'll take mine to the track - stock CT26, stock fuel, and I'm willing to bet I'll be able to lay down some very respectable times this year.