HELPPP!! Must pass smog!!(california)

johnathan1

Supra =
Aug 19, 2005
5,056
1
36
36
Downey, California, United States
Hello, I have an 87 turbo, and the last timeit was tested, it was designated as a gross polluter, saying that the hydrcarbon levels were atabout 5.4, and they should have been around 0.65 or something (i don't have the paper with me right now) adn the NOx was a little bit high, but the first one that was listed was okay. Also, i said that the fuel evaporative conrol system failed viual inspection, what does that mean?? I was thinking the charcoalc canister? Also, i was planning on switching to Mobil 1 synth oil, and putting a new CAT and o2 sensor... I can't figure out why it won't pass, as the car runs like new... Also the block rebuilt about 30,000 miles ago with a brand new turbo (not the head). What do i need to do, or wht could be causing such high hydrocarbons?? (im kinda looking for a quick fix right now, if possible) So please, if anyone has anything that they know that could help me, it would be very much appreciated, as I have a shot time to do the repairs, (cali sucks). Thanks!!!!!
-John
 

GrimJack

Administrator
Dec 31, 1969
12,377
3
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56
Richmond, BC, Canada
idriders.com
Visual inspection means something with the system failed - gas cap not holding pressure, charcoal canister removed, lines from the gas tank to the canister to the BVSV to the throttle body broken or missing, something like that.

A new cat & O2 can't hurt, that's for certain. Test that your EGR system is still working - and still there, too, of course.
 

wh0wants2know

New Member
Apr 4, 2005
55
0
0
seattle
EGR won't make a difference as long as everything else is working. I passed my emitions test in WA without one (would have failed the visual in cali) but my numbers were low enough that I would have passed in cali (no, I don't still have the emissions sheet). I would say O2 sensor and spark plugs would be the biggest contributor, followed by timing, then cat, then EGR, but I know people have passed without a working EGR (myself being one).
 

jetjock

creepy-ass cracka
Jul 11, 2005
9,439
0
0
Redacted per Title 18 USC Section 798
The ASM loaded mode test used in CA measures HC in PPM so your numbers don't make sense. Now if you're refering to CO as 5.4% you indeed have problems. Post the actual numbers when you can. As Grim said, an obvious issue must have been found in your EVAP system for it to fail the visual.

High HC can be caused by many things including lean misfire, carbon deposits, even a faulty EVAP system. High NOx can be caused by faulty EGR operation (the EGR system is there solely to control NOx), high combustion temps, a lean mixture, faulty cooling system, fan clutch, lots of things. The tricky part about NOx is that it's maximum occurs very near stoichio so it doesn't take much of a lean condition to drive it up.

Throwing parts at the car isn't the way to go. Yeah, a new converter will likely clean up the mess but if the root cause is still there it'll just reduce the new converter's efficiency and shorten it's life. Better to check things out first. Any codes? Is the O2 sensor cross counting? Check it at the diag connector. The sole job of the sensor is to precondition the exhaust stream to the narrow range a cat requires to operate. That's why it's there, not to make the engine run well, because "well" is a relative term. Drift away from that ideal exhaust composition and not only do emissions go up because the mixture is wrong but also because the cat will no longer work at peak efficiency. If it's old than guess what happens? The bottom line is anyone who runs a cat must keep the EFI running perfectly. Those who ignore faulty engine management for anything more than a little time will be buying a new cat in addition to chasing the EFI problem.

Cali does indeed have tough standards but not so bad for 81-87 model years and many cars pass without EGR. My 1981 DMC 12 doesn't have EGR but it passes every time for NOx because it has a big cat. I also check the lambda system before I bring it in for testing. Which reminds me....

One of the most common mistakes made is to replace a factory cat with a cheaper one. Cheap means small because the cat uses precious metals. Small means low effciency so again, if you're going to skimp on the cat you'd better stay on top of engine management. Also, the Supra uses a three way catalyst so one portion could be dead while the rest is OK. Iin the case of NOx that would be the reduction bed. Is the cat lighting off? Does the engine run hot? Ignition OK?

As a formerly certified California BAR 97 emissions tech it's difficult for me to help beyond this without the previous test results. Post them when you can and anyone else who asks for emissions advice should always do the same. The relationship between the gases can be very helpful in diagnosing where the problem is, especially the O2 level as O2 passes through the cat without being effected. That said, the best way to diagnose emissions problems is to sample before the cat, assuming you have access to an analyzer.

Or you could just throw parts at it ;)
 

suprastanger507mgte

2x88+2x89+1x91+2x92=ME
Apr 5, 2005
3,148
6
38
Hayward , Ca
If your NOx is too high..then its probably your cats are gone and is not heating enough to burn it up in there.

Evaporative system can be your charcoal cannister (Vacuumn Routing) and don't forget your Gas cap as well.

New plugs, wires, O2 Sensor and a good drive right before testing is a good idea.

BTW : Do not fill up at Rotten Robbie before you go for a test :)
 

tte

Breaking In - in progress
Mar 30, 2005
940
0
0
Northern California
Yeah i had the same problem... I was running a 3" downpipe and exhaust and removed my EGR unit.
They looked for my EGR unit and I failed on visual too.

So I put back my stock downpipe and EGR unit. Just did a basic tuneup...like change oil and plugs and I also wound the screw in the air flow meter out to run lean.

I have a KNN filter and the first smog station told me it was illegal. There is a exemption law in California State that states that KNN Filter on our cars is legal. I have the documents with me.A fellow supra owner on here gave me the website for it so i showed it to the smog inspectors and they passed me.

I did not want to leave anything to chance so i got a gallon of methanol. Ran my car almost empty and 10 mins before smog i put the methanol in and ran it for a while. Did the smog for 20 mins and passed with flying colors.

Then I put on my aftermarket shit back on again. I know people will tell you that methanol will attack the rubber components of ur fuel system and that is true, but I have talked to lots of racers and companies and they told me that havin methanol in ur car for like 20-30 mins wont do any harm. You wont race ur car, all you will dso is smog is for 2o mins...thats it. Thats how hot rodders keep their cars street legal...they use methanol to pass smoke.

I have not had problems with my car so far after I dumped the methanol in my car....But remember to fill up after you pass smoke.

Cheers,
Roy
 

bluemax

The Family Man
Mar 30, 2005
418
0
0
Orange County, CA
Check for leaks in the intake hoses. High HC is usually due to running too rich. So if you have a new O2 sensor you probably have a vaccuum leak somewhere (especially if you're failing at the high RPM test).
I had leaks in the intake on my '87 NA>T. The hoses get old, no way around it.
The catalytic converter is the device that reduces the emissions the most. But if the emissions are grossly out, the cat can't help much. An '87 probably needs a new cat. You can't really test it though. Some places will tell you they tested it and its bad. In order to test a cat you have to measure the emissions before and after the cat. On my car, there is no way to test the emissions before the cat.
If you're a gross polluter don't you need to take it to the state referee?
He'll be looking for any mods that are'nt factory equipment, anything missing or any visually faulty equipment. If you don't have the secondary cat on the factory down pipe, he can technically fail you on the visual inspection. All cars must have all the factory smog equipment. If it was a NA>T mod, technically the NA didn't have the secondary cat so its not required.
The state referee station will also do a safety inspection, so make sure all your lights work.

As far as legal mods, anything is legal as long as the manufacturer took the time and money to get a California exemption. K & N along with most big name manufacturers have done this unless its sold as "off-road only".
Check out these sites:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/aftermkt.htm#ca
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/devices/amquery.php

If you're just going to shotgun it, I'd change the o2 sensor, the catalytic converter, the spark plugs and wires (if they haven't been recently changed), and check all the intake hoses for any possible leaks or cracks.
 
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johnathan1

Supra =
Aug 19, 2005
5,056
1
36
36
Downey, California, United States
wow! thanks for the response everyone... I will be home tomorrow, and will post a scan of the emissions test paper. Thanks! Also, when you say intake hoses, which ones exactly, the accordion hose from air filter to turbo, and all hoses connected to that? Also,what about the methanol thing, what does everyone think about that? How much would I need, and where would I even get it? Also,I think that the wiring to the o2 sensor may have been faulty when tested, and still is (one wire completely disconnected), so i will have to re-solder it. How can i repair wires so that they will pass inspection? Just crimp them with the weatherproof connectors? How much of a difference will the o2 sensor make if disconnected, huge? Also, as ar as the EVAP system, i am stumped, everything is in place, maybe inspector didn't know what he was doing? Would a bad canister that LOOKS fine fail visual? Thanks everyone, i know I have a lot of questions...:icon_bigg
-John
 

bluemax

The Family Man
Mar 30, 2005
418
0
0
Orange County, CA
As far as the O2 sensor. You will fail everytime both the visual and probably the emissions testing if the O2 is not completely and correctly connected. The O2 sensor is part of what meters the fuel. No inspector will pass you with an O2 wire disconnected, even if its the heater wire. The O2 sensor helps the computer meter the fuel.
For California, you need EVERYTHING CONNECTED and nothing added unless you have an Exemption otherwise you will fail the visual.

As far as the EVAP system, is it 100% stock and completely connected? They could fail you if you are using the wrong type hoses. Something must not be visually right if he failed you.

Also, was this a test only station or a regular rip-off fix-it smog station. It makes a big difference. Find a test only station that does a free retest. They are going to be more honest and really don't want to fail you because you'll be back for a free re-test. Time is money for them so they don't want to do more than they have to. The fix-it stations want to fail you so they can make money fixing things that aren't wrong. That's how they make money. It could be that if you took it to a fit-it station, they failed you on the EVAP because they want to sell you something that you don't need.

You should be able to repair the wire by solder and heat shrink or crimp butt connector.
 

tte

Breaking In - in progress
Mar 30, 2005
940
0
0
Northern California
Hi Jonathan,

You can buy the methanol from a local race shpop.
Just buy a gallon or two. I used only a gallon.

Wont cost you much...I bought a 6 pk of beer for the race shop onwer and he gave the methanol free.


Cheers,
Roy
 

bluemax

The Family Man
Mar 30, 2005
418
0
0
Orange County, CA
Surprisingly I didn't see the Greddy Catch Can (I assume its a Greddy) in the EO listings. Is there a CARB number or California Executive Order number that came with the unit? It would be a sticker or placard that may or may have not been attached to the unit.
If it does not have an exemption it is not legal. You could just remove it for the inspection and reinstall it after.
 
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mrnickleye

Love My Daily Driver !
Jun 8, 2005
825
0
0
Mojave Desert, Ca
By those #s, it is obvious that your car is running WAY to rich. The NOx is low because it is so rich. The HCs are high due to the rich condition.\I'd say you have more problems than just an 02 sensor.

And very likely the cat conv. is now shot.

Does it run and idle real good?? if not, you may have a leaking fuel injector (or more). Or a missfiring cyl due to spark problems.

It appears you will need to do some diagnosing, and its a step-by-step process of elimination, done in a specified order.
Spark system first, then fuel.

You may need to find a really good diag-technician.

You need to check the TSRM on evap system components, and the proper routing of hoses. You may have to find another car to look at the system.

Sensor wiring? didn't the test tech point out the problem wire?
 

johnathan1

Supra =
Aug 19, 2005
5,056
1
36
36
Downey, California, United States
Umm, it runs and idles perfectly, sounds great, and I already took car of the wiring problem, but the o2 sensor was probably not working when it was tested (I had no idea), Also, the BVSV has been replaced since then, if it werent working, would that cause this? What can I do to diagnose this myself? Thanks!!!!!

-John
 

mrnickleye

Love My Daily Driver !
Jun 8, 2005
825
0
0
Mojave Desert, Ca
After you fix whatever on the evap system, You could have it tested again to see where your #s are now that the 02 wiring is fixed.
The sensor may be covered with carbon now, from running so rich. The test will tell.
After the test, you may pass, or have better #s. Then an 02 and/or cat may be needed. Bosch 02s are at most parts houses for reasonably price.

We install (cut & weld) magnaflow universal ones for $149.95. So don't get ripped off. Also be aware that many shops install cheap cats that we call "one pass cats", because they are crappy, and won't last 2 years for the next test.
 

jetjock

creepy-ass cracka
Jul 11, 2005
9,439
0
0
Redacted per Title 18 USC Section 798
Eurena Socrates? Yikes.

Everything mrnickleye said. The car is running rich, just look at the low O2 and high CO. It's going to idle and run fine with that mixture but it sure isn't going to pass.
 
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