Going NA-T or sell

fiyota

I ♥ Boost
May 3, 2006
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Kelowna, BC
Hey guys, I have spent a lot of time thinking about what to do about my supra... here's what my situation is... prices are in canadian

Bought the car for $3300 and I've spent about $3700 into all new front and rear brake pads, resurfaced the rotors, and new calipers in the rear, various cooling system repairs, valve cover gaskets, head gasket (shaved head), new intake and exhaust gasket... that money went into all the parts and labour at a few local shops. The whole motor was completely rebuilt 40,000km ago at 140,000km, the bottom end and everything... most of the things that have gone wrong since the rebuild are from sitting (only about 6k a year on the car the past 8 years)..

The car has some ticking noise still (lifter noise)... and the exterior needs a bit of work (ding on the passenger side door) and it could use some fresh paint (various scuffs on the body & mirrors from general use and the hood is faded a bit)....

So I dont think I'll be able to get my money back if I sell the car as is. So I'm not sure what route I should go...

1. Repaint it, lower it, rims, exhaust, fresh paint and shim the valves
2. All of the Above + Turbo it
3. Sell it now and start with a clean turbo car (90-92)

I Kind of want to keep it and put some more money into it and turbo it. If I were to go that route, what would I need to do to it to do the turbo conversion... I dont want to put a mhg in since I just spent $1500 doing the current hg job. Would I need to worry about my hg? Anyways, what would the part list for the conversion look like?

What do you guys think?
 
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Ma70.Ent

Supramania Contributor
Feb 26, 2006
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NJ
I'd do two.

My brother did an NA-T without getting a MHG. He just torqued his headgasket down to 80+ lbft. About the turbo parts, I think you just need the basic turbo parts and the ECU, and in the future, you'll probably need a clutch/transmission that can hold the power
 

darkandroid1234

What? ...Yaaassss!
May 10, 2006
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Bradenton, FL
Not my work, just something I saved and edited for clearer reading, and so the contents would fit one post.

"7M-GE" to "GE/T"

Introduction
My car started its life as a Naturally Aspirated MA70 Supra, with modest modifications. After researching possible ways to find power in the 7M engine, not many options were out there for the GE trim. With most of the basic bolt-on, it was a fairly quick car, but still lacked power to keep up to newer and modified sports cars. Aggressive camshafts, headwork, and possibly some sort of injection would be needed to achieve this. After looking into it more, not many options was available that still kept my car a semi-daily driver. At the end of fall 2002, my car’s temperature gauge started to rise and what not. After developing various problems (later on I discovered that my distributor was on its way out), I parked the car for the winter and started gathering parts to do a conversion.
A headgasket and clutch later, I managed to produce a car that I can drive everyday and still put down over 325 horsepower at the crank with basic modifications. When you hear about someone converting their car from an N/A to a Turbo, there are a few different ways to approach this:

• 7M-GE to 7M-GTE Engine swap. This involves swapping the entire engine with wiring harness, ECU, transmission occasionally, and other various parts into the GE body. This is a very common trend due to ease of swap, lack of custom fabrication, and costs. Recommend to users with low/moderate knowledge of the 7M engine and slightly higher knowledge of mechanics in general.
• 7M-GE to 7M-GE/T with GTE electronics. This is what my project involves. Keeping the GE head and block, I transferred over all of the mechanical and electronic portions of the GTE. End product is basically a GTE with the GE block/head, resulting in higher compression. More customization can be done this way (oil lines, filter, cooler, piping, compression, etc) but involves more fabrication of parts and a much higher price tag. It is recommended to users with moderate/high knowledge of 7M engine, slightly higher knowledge of mechanics in general, and a higher knowledge of custom fabrication.
• 7M-GE to 7M-GE/T with GE electronics. This is the most cost effective setup out there for N/A drivers, though I do not recommend it. This involves transferring the mechanical parts such as the turbo and intercooler to the GE engine while keeping the electronics (AFM, Distributor, Injectors, ECU, etc) in place. It can be done with a relatively low knowledge of mechanics and the 7M engine, but do not expect this setup to last long. Without extensive tuning and fuel management, the idea of a daily driver is thrown out the window. Only recommended for the serious user (if so, you should not even be reading this) or someone who likes to experiment with (a.k.a. blow up) engines. I find this to have a minimal price tag in the short term, larger price tag in the long term.

After studying each option, I chose the 2nd choice due to the fact it was one of the most sensible options next to an entire engine swap, and gave me a bit more flexibility in this project, and mostly, something unique.

Gathering Parts
This can either turn out to be one of the most time consuming, or quickest parts of the project. The best is to find a 7M-GTE that’s developing BHG (Blown Head Gasket), or has some sort of damage to the rear end. Do not start with a car that has 200k miles on it and has failing parts. Each of these options gives you a relatively good engine with minimal damage for a low price. You may think the initial price of buying a parts car is too high, but after tracking down all the parts individually, it adds up. If you can’t find a parts car, look for parts that come from a reputable source. Someone claiming a great CT-26 turbo with fast and furious stickers on E-Bay with a zero feedback rating is probably something you should stay away from. Now is a good time to think about some of the possible goals for the car. 550cc injectors could be bought at this point to save you from finding used 440cc stock turbo injectors and so on. Due to the price tag of these aftermarket parts and the current price tag of the project, this might not be realistic. I started out with 440cc / stock AFM / stock intercooler with my project, due to a lack of funds at the time.

Parts list from the GTE engine
Here is a list of the parts you need to locate off of a 7M-GTE engine. Try and stick to the same year (87-88/89-92) for your parts. Some things such as the wiring harness and ECU need to be the same year/model to work as well. Safest way to avoid complications is just to find the same year parts for the major electronic pieces. Items with a year in front of them indicate these types of parts. 1989 is the year used for example:

• 1989 GTE 5spd ECU
• 1989 GTE 5spd Wiring Harness
• GTE CPS (cam position sensor)
• GTE Coil Pack
• GTE Igniter
• GTE AFM
• CT-26 Stock Turbo
• CT-26 O2 Housing/elbow
• Downpipe / exhaust system
• Oil Cooler
• Oil Cooler piping
• Intercooler
• Intercooler piping
• GTE Exhaust Manifold
• GTE O2 sensor
• GTE Fuel Pressure Relay
• GTE Boost pressure sensor
• (6) GTE 440cc injectors (1989 7M-GE fuel rail)
• BOV (blow off valve)
• Various Hoses/Clamps
• Oil filter housing
• GTE Tachometer electronics

Various parts list
After gathering the parts from the GTE engine, there are a few other various parts you should gather to save you complications for the long run. I will go into greater detail later.

• Toyota Thermostat
• W-58(N/A) or R154 (Turbo) upgraded clutch
• Aftermarket or Resurfaced Flywheel (W-58 or R154)
• ARP Head Bolts
• Toyota Head Gasket or better
• Toyota intake / exhaust manifold gaskets for the GTE (depending on application)
• Toyota rubber coolant hoses

7M-GE Engine dismantle
With the parts in hand, you can finally park your Supra to go under the knife. Remove all the electronics on the car that have some sort of connection to the wiring harness. Other electronics already hooked into the body of the car (such as the windshield wiper motor etc) will work regardless. The wiring harness extends over through the firewall on the passengers side of the vehicle. Make sure you disconnect/remove the battery before attempting all of this. Removing the glove box allows easy access to the GE ECU. Remove various intake, and exhaust components to view the naked head and block. Remove head for resurfacing and remove transmission for upgrade (R154 turbo transmission) or replacing the GE clutch. The head gasket will not last very long under boost conditions, along with the GE clutch. Learn from my mistakes and replace both during the dismantle process. Personally, if you are aiming under 400-450 RWTQ, the W-58 (N/A) transmission should be fine. Keep all of the bolts and various parts together, as you will never know when you might need them again. Replacing various coolant hoses and replacing the thermostat at the same time would be a wise decision. As always, clean all of the parts thoroughly, such as the radiator. Years of driving accumulates large amounts of dirt, leaves, and other foreign objects on the front of the radiator resulting in cooling problems.


Head and Block preparations
To start off, I’ll give you a brief history of my prior experience with the 7M motor with higher compression under forced induction. With ARP head bolts torqued to 72 foot-pounds, and a brand new OEM Toyota Headgasket (some say redesigned, I would be skeptical about that) I believed the way to prevent headgaskets blowing would be to control detonation. So with enough fuel in hand, I went the route of the stock headgasket. The Head was milled by local machine shop 6 thousandths of an inch, and the block was cleaned. By that, I mean that I removed all the old gasket material on the block. Within 1000 KM, my headgasket was blown again, with deformation around the intake side of the gasket even worse than prior. With further research, I came to a conclusion that even though I did control detonation, that the way the 7M motor is designed, specifically the different expanding and contracting rates of the aluminum head against the cast iron block, along with the design regarding cooling passages on the OEM headgaskets, that a inferior product such as the OEM headgasket cannot last under these boosted situations. Some have used the OEM headgasket with proper torque with success, but under a high compression application, I would suggest against it.
With my 2nd headgasket blown, and knowing I was just getting started at 300 horsepower, I soon realized that the OEM gasket would not be the way to go. By taking the head into a local machine shop again, this time shaving 5 thousandths of an inch off, the head was ready to be installed. But having some time on my hands, I purchased new valve stem seals, and replaced my old ones accordingly. If your engine has a lot of wear, or if you are slightly smoking oil out of your exhaust, I would suggest to change these as doing it with the head on is much more difficult. I also received a five angle valve job with reground valves at this time, for better airflow. On the 7M motor, they come stock with a somewhat three angle valve job, which is much better than most stock engines. For the average supra owner, if you are tight on cash, I would advise against this modification, unless you can do it yourself or a reputable shop will do this job for cheap.
When going for more-than-stock power, there is no substitute for a properly installed Metal Headgasket. A few companies make these gaskets for the 7M, specifically GReddy and HKS. These headgaskets are of a much better design, regarding cooling passages, and come in various thicknesses. Unless you are confident with your judgment, order your headgasket after all of the block and headwork has been done. That way, you can select the right size to normalize or decrease your compression ratio. Remember, the higher the compression ratio, the more prone you are to detonation and pinging when running positive manifold pressure. Don’t expect to run 20psi on N/A compression and dodge extreme detonation.
For the block work, inspect the block for major crevasses in the block, paying close attention to the firings around the cylinders, and damage around coolant passages. If it looks like the block is in decent shape, you can follow Reg Riemer's guide to lapping your block at http://web.archive.org/web/20031215115508/http://www.supras.com/pub/SONIC/MA70/HKSMETALHGv5.txt , where you will find a more in depth guide to metal head gaskets, and their installation into the 7M. A common saying is “an alarm system is only as good as its install”, that rule can be used here, as a Metal Headgasket will do you no good if installed incorrectly. Please follow these steps closely and do it once and for all for good. It’s not fun to replace blown headgaskets time and time again on your vehicle due to improper sealing. Ask me how I know.

Engine Assembly
Assuming you have gathered all of your necessary parts and did the required work to your engine, you are now ready to start to reassemble your motor. After installing the head, disregard any manuals regarding the 7M-GE motor, especially regarding the electronics. From now on, you will need to refer to 7M-GTE manuals for help. Things that change would be the replacement of the distributor with the cam position sensor, new addition of a coil pack, addition of the igniter, replacement of the 7M-GE AFM with the 7M-GTE AFM (housing and electronics), addition of the fuel pressure relay, and replacement of injectors. Don’t forget as well, you will need to swap over the 7M-GE tach circuit board to the 7M-GTE circuit board. From now on, things are pretty standard and self-explanatory. With your ECU and wiring harness in place, you can plug in various sensors and electronics. When installing new sensors or electronics, such as the igniter, it works best if you place the item close to the stock location on the 7M-GTE, due to the length of wire from the wiring harness. There are a few sensor connectors you can disregard that are on the GTE wiring harness, such as VSV's on the intake side, and auxiliary fan sensors on the water jacket housing.
Now, depending on which setup route you took, regarding intake manifolds, both turbo and non turbo upper intake manifolds will bolt up to the lower intake manifold. If you choose the turbo intake manifold, it is smart as well to go with the turbo valve covers as well, and the rest is self-explanatory. For the non turbo upper intake manifold, the sensors such as the cold start injector, and ISC valve work on the GTE wiring harness. If you choose this manifold, you will notice that the Y pipe takes up a large portion of room, with no stock mounting points for the coil pack. The coil pack can be mounted sideways, (please refer to my site at http://web.archive.org/web/20031215115508/http://bkriz.mkiiisupra.com/ for mounting bracket pictures) but requires a special mounting bracket to be fabricated, and the coil pack wiring needs to be extended for the connection to the wiring harness. In order to use the stock 7M-GTE spark plug wires, you will need to re-arrange the order of the coil pack so it is backwards from the stock configuration. It will be tight, but stock length spark plug wires will reach. From there, you should have no other things to worry about, and can be reassembled just like you would a normal 7M-GTE.

Final Thoughts
Was it worth it? Well, I have to respond to that question with another one; Do you like the MKIII supra? If you like working on it, if you like driving it, if you like understanding how the various systems on it work, then this is an excellent way to accomplish all of these things and have a very unique car on your hands once you’re done. The best part about this project is that each one is unique in its own way, and can be approached by many different aspects.
Don’t expect to have a super-go-fast-ultra-reliable car on your hands once you are done. It will take a long time until you find and work out all the bugs in the system, and even longer if you wish to modify it to become a fast(er) car than what you started with. Be prepared to have extra cash on hand when things go wrong, and do a lot of problem solving and diagnostics on the way.
All in all, once you boost, you won’t want anything else
 
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mkiiSupraMan18

Needs a new username...
Apr 1, 2005
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Boo... keep the NA and just make it T. That way you got all that kick-ass stuff done, and you know it was done right, and when it's all said and done you pay 1/3 of the insurance. :icon_bigg

I didn't read that long ass post, but if you go full out na->T conversion with the electronics and everything from a GTE car it's a BREEZE. Just like putting the regular engine in. Everything connects to where it should (just make sure you get a harness from the same year)

As far as transmissions go, a stock NA 5sp (w58) holds up just find to daily abuse, not sure about the Autos though. The worste part is not having LSD, so I would suggest picking one of those up as well.
 

mkiiSupraMan18

Needs a new username...
Apr 1, 2005
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^ you're freakin set then.

Don't sell it, because like you said, you'll never be able to get a turbo for what you'll get for that, a nice one, anyway.
 

GotToyota?

Dedicated Member
Apr 6, 2005
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Texas Motor Speedway
Keep it man, you have a nice clean base, ready to become turbo, much like mine. My friend NA-T'd his N/A back in the day, ran with GE electronics, stock CT-26, stock manifold, 3" DP and exhaust, SAFC, FMIC w/hardpiping, and 2-3 degree retarded timing. He ran with a stock HG torqued down to 80 lbs. He ran 10 psi daily and 12 psi at the track, and he said the car was a beast with 93 octane. He actually sold it, new owner put on a 60-1, and the motor is still holding up to this day (he NA-T'd it about 3 years ago).

-Matt
 

fiyota

I ♥ Boost
May 3, 2006
1,063
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0
Kelowna, BC
well... I dont know what to do now... I think I just started getting a pretty bad case of rod knock.... this is rediculous.... I'm starting to get so pissed off at my car it's not even funny... I dont know what to do.... Sitting at about 850-1100rpm it's got a loud kinda clunking sound... it is almost in time with the ticking from my valves... and the knocking speeds up with the rpm to about 1500-2000rpm and then you can't hear it all that much above 2k.... I'm pretty sure it's a rod knock, the sound has a fair punch to it, kind of a flat clunking sound that you can almost feel... if not RK what else could it be?
 

mkiiSupraMan18

Needs a new username...
Apr 1, 2005
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United States
Determining which cylinder contains the noisy parts may be aided by shorting out the plug wires one by one with a common low voltage test light. Now you won't get the bulb to light up but it is a convenient way to short the cylinders without getting zapped or damaging the ignition coil.

Attach the alligator clip to a convenient ground, away from fuel system components, and pierce the wire boots at the coilpack or distributor end of the wire.

If the noise is changed when the plug wire is shorted to ground, you can figure that the problem is in the reciprocating bottom end parts. (piston, wrist pin, connecting rod or connecting rod bearing)

The reason the sound changes is that when you short the cylinder plug wire you are stopping the combustion chamber explosions that are slamming the piston downward making the inside of the big end of the connecting rod bang against it's connecting rod journal. Or in the case of piston slap, no explosion changes how the piston is shoved hard sideways against the cylinder wall.

If you get a change in the sound when you short a cylinder out it may become moot as to what the problem is because the oil pan and cylinder head must be removed to correct the problem. [Generally speaking, an engine with damage to reciprocating parts (pistons, rings, connecting rods, wrist pins or rod bearings) and more than 70 thousand miles is not cost effective or risk free enough to attempt to repair. Replacing a crankshaft, for example while the rest of the engine has 70k perfectly maintained miles on it is risky enough but whatever killed the crank has scored the rings and packed the lifters with debris and smoked the piston pin bosses etc.]

If the sound doesn't change, look at parts other than the reciprocating ones. In many cases of rod-knock or piston slap, more than one is banging so even if you eliminate the noise from one rod the other one will still be a-banging away with a different, more singular tone.


From the link I posted
 

fiyota

I ♥ Boost
May 3, 2006
1,063
0
0
Kelowna, BC
mkiiSupraMan18 said:
Determining which cylinder contains the noisy parts may be aided by shorting out the plug wires one by one with a common low voltage test light. Now you won't get the bulb to light up but it is a convenient way to short the cylinders without getting zapped or damaging the ignition coil.

Attach the alligator clip to a convenient ground, away from fuel system components, and pierce the wire boots at the coilpack or distributor end of the wire.

If the noise is changed when the plug wire is shorted to ground, you can figure that the problem is in the reciprocating bottom end parts. (piston, wrist pin, connecting rod or connecting rod bearing)

The reason the sound changes is that when you short the cylinder plug wire you are stopping the combustion chamber explosions that are slamming the piston downward making the inside of the big end of the connecting rod bang against it's connecting rod journal. Or in the case of piston slap, no explosion changes how the piston is shoved hard sideways against the cylinder wall.

If you get a change in the sound when you short a cylinder out it may become moot as to what the problem is because the oil pan and cylinder head must be removed to correct the problem. [Generally speaking, an engine with damage to reciprocating parts (pistons, rings, connecting rods, wrist pins or rod bearings) and more than 70 thousand miles is not cost effective or risk free enough to attempt to repair. Replacing a crankshaft, for example while the rest of the engine has 70k perfectly maintained miles on it is risky enough but whatever killed the crank has scored the rings and packed the lifters with debris and smoked the piston pin bosses etc.]

If the sound doesn't change, look at parts other than the reciprocating ones. In many cases of rod-knock or piston slap, more than one is banging so even if you eliminate the noise from one rod the other one will still be a-banging away with a different, more singular tone.


From the link I posted

Thanks for the link from before, it was very helpful, I have read it through several times and am ready to go out and track down the sound. I was just curious since your reply said that if the noise stops it isnt rod knock, which isn't what it said in the link you posted... just trying to get it straight