Emissions Issues (Non Supra)

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NDBoost

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Alright my mom has been going through a rough patch financially wise and i offered to help her with some car repairs etc.

She needs to get her 1988 Buick Lesabre (V6) passed emissions and has run it several times. I have the records of the last three. The 1st set of #'s are before i did a basic tune up (plug wires, oil change, coolant flush). The 2nd run is after the tuneup, and finally the 3rd run is after changing the catalytic converter.

State Applicable Standards
Hydrocarbons (HC):1.60
Carbon Monoxide (CO):15.00
Oxides of Nitrogen (NOX):2.50
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1st Run
HC: 00.76
CO: 15.82
NOx: 02.33
2nd Run
HC: 3.13
CO: 128.29
NOx: 0.87
3rd Run
HC: 2.06
CO: 107.83
NOx: 0.37

Now obviously after installing the cat it brought all 3 testing areas down a bit. What else could be causing this thing to fail so miserably. The only thing i havent checked is Plugs, Ox Sensor and EGR. The car throws a random intermittent CEL but its not consistant.

It seems that after I changed the plug wires and changed the oil it freaked out and all of the emissions went sky high for some reason..

Any info with this stuff would be awesome, seeing that i dont know much about all this emissions junk.

edit:
i let it sit in the driveway for 30minutes just idling and then i told her to drive on the freeway for a good 15-20minutes to get it nice and hot. I told her to keep the car running when in line and put 91 octane and a bottle or two of that octane booster in it.
 
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jdub

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Hmmm...interesting.

Here's what I do in good ole AZ. Make sure the CAT is hot...take it down the freeway and run it fairly hard. If you have to wait in line at the test station for very long, the CAT can cool off. A gallon of methanol (Home Depot) in less than a quarter tank of gas works wonders...just fill it up after the test.
 
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i forgot to mention what you made note to do jdub. we did this, i let it sit in the driveway for 30minutes just idling and then i told her to drive on the freeway for a good 15-20minutes to get it nice and hot. I told her to keep the car running when in line and put 91 octane and a bottle or two of that octane booster in it.
 

jdub

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The methanol works much better...my old Pathfinder failed; changed the plugs, used carb cleaner down the throttle body, and did the gallon of methanol in about 5 gallons of gas already in the tank. Cut the emissions to less than half.

The bottles of octane boost is not enough to make a big difference. I learned the methanol trick from a mechanic down at Scottsdale Air Park...they do it all the time to make almost any car pass.
 
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ill check it out, but is there any possibility that the EGR/ox sensor could be going out?

can anyone else give some insight as to why these #'s are so high?
 
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jdub

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Based on the CO, I'd say the O2 sensor...EGR is usually associated with NOx. Check the plug connections too.
 

Mr. Sinister

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Your NOx readings indicate that your EGR is fine. High CO is usually caused by a bad/not hot enough cat. High HC means you're running too rich. I would think that adding octane booster was what you didn't want to do. It won't burn as easily. Run the tank close to empty and put a quarter of 87 in. If I were you, I'd change the plugs and air filter. Then rev it a little to keep the cat hot while waiting in the test line.
 

jetjock

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Jul 11, 2005
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Wow...some serious misinformation in that post. jdub is the only one coming anywhere near close.

The O2 sensor is the first thing you should've checked. The plugs second. The engine is running rich. That's obvious from the CO, not the HC. The engine is clearly not operating in closed loop or if it is the loop is shifted very rich. And the new cat is being trashed by the same process as the old one probably was.

If you don't understand basic EFI you haven't a prayer of understanding emissions problems. Sorry, your mom may be strapped but unless you take the money you're wasting by throwing parts at this car and give it to someone who knows what they're doing nothing is likely to change.
 
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jetjock although i agree with your whole concept of have someone else work on it. Its not an option, shops are requesting $400-$500 to diagnose the vehicle and do a basic tuneup and get it passed emissions.


If its something simple such as replacing the o2 sensor then i might as well spend $20 put it in and try it. Keep in mind this is the stock o2 sensor from the factory..
 

jetjock

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I sympathize but there's a reason shops charge that and emissions techs need to be licensed. The stuff can be tricky to do and requires special gear and knowledge. My point was that if you'd had even the basics down you should've gone right to the O2 sensor after seeing the numbers. I hate to see someone flailing around when it's gonna end up causing frustration, time, and money. You're learning something true, but learning works best when you study the academics first and emission stuff requires that if you want any chance at all of being successful.

The other problem is the IM 240 test (what your state uses) is a very tough one. Even if you had a grip on this, without the gear to verify your repairs you're still at the mercy of the state. Trying to solve these issues without a background and proper gear isn't easy.

If the sensor is original go ahead and change it. Change the plugs and air filter. Change the oil. Forget putting anything in the tank. In fact, other than making sure the car is good and hot (cat lit off), most of the techniques out there for passing emissions are a total crock. Even the stuff they sell to put in your tank is nothing more than poly-amine fuel system cleaner. The only proven way to pass a test is to make sure the engine is mechanically healthy and running at stoichiometric feeding a good converter. The car passed when it was new in just this configuration.

You can learn this stuff lots of places but here's some basics:

The cat can only work when it's fed a very narrow range and composition of gases. That's the job of the O2 sensor. The sensor's sole reason for life is to serve the cat converter. Sure, it makes the engine run "right" but all that does is get you gases in the right amounts the converter needs to operate. This is called the stoichiometric mixture. It's the theoretical mixture where all the fuel and all the air is consumed and nothing should be left over but CO2 and water.

A stoich mixture is 14.7 parts air to one part fuel and stoich is what your O2 sensor is calibrated to. If the cat sees anything much richer or leaner than stoich it's efficiency, it's ability to clean up CO, HC, and NOx, rapidly drops off. Why? Because it can only be so big and thus can handle only so much (even when new). Don't buy "cheap" replacement converters unless you only want to pass a test. Cheap means small because of the precious metals used in cats. Small means they'll handle even less pollutants than a good one. With cats you truly get what you pay for.

Anyway, in the old days stoich was "good enough" until the eco-nazis in California decided emissions had to be cleaner. Thus the cat was born. It cleans up the little bit of mess left over but the key thing to remember is *it must be fed a stoich exhaust stream to work*. You can beat down emissions from a non-stoich mixture with a new cat but the cat won't last long.

So it's obvious the key to good tailpipe numbers is first and foremost making sure the engine is running in closed loop at stoich. This is why emission techs and mechanics are trained to look at the exhaust stream *before* the cat when diagnosing emissions issues, because the cat can mask engine problems unless you're using a 4 or 5 gas analyzer. For emissions test themselves all the state cares about is what you're dumping into the air. It should be clear by now that just because you pass an emissions test doesn't mean your engine is running 100% right. Close probably, but your cat may be taking a beating just the same.

Anyway, if the engine is running in closed loop at stoich the CO will be around 1%, CO2 will be around 14-15% (the higher the better), HC will be around 50-200 ppm and Nox at around 1500-2000 ppm. These are "engine out" emissions, the cat will further clean this up to even less. Btw, the cat has two different sections inside, one for cleaning up the CO and HC and another for cleaning up NOx but we'll skip how it works beyond that.

When the O2 sensor is constantly switching above and below stoich the engine is in closed loop ie; it's responding to changes made by the ecu to keep it right around stoich. Lean, rich, lean, rich. You can see this by looking at the O2 sensor signal. It should be switching high and low but averaging about 450 millivolts. That's the mid range of the sensor where stoich occurs. Any average above or below that means that, although the engine is still in closed loop, it's been shifted lean or rich of the 450 mv stoich midpoint. If the sensor signal is "stuck" high at around 800 mv the car is open loop and running rich, stuck low at around 200 mv and the car open loop lean. Either of these conditions aren't stoich and the cat will not like being fed this rich or lean mixture. Converter efficiency falls and emissions go up.

Why the switching on either side of rich and lean? Why can't we just run the engine at dead nuts stoich? Well, the cat actually needs to have this switching. Every time the mixture goes lean there is extra O2 in the stream and every time it goes rich there is extra CO. (O2 is a product of lean mixtures and CO is a product of rich mixtures). I'll spare you the details but suffice to say the cat needs these extra bits of O2 and CO to work. So the cat needs a mixture swinging slightly above and below stoichiometric to be happy. Feed it that and you'll be golden on emissions. It's as simple as that, in theory at least.

In practice lots of things can cause the mixture to drift from stoich. Remember, the O2 sensor only measures one gas: oxygen. It has no idea what the other gases are but if the mixture is stoich the 02 will always be around .5%. There is a definite relationship and interaction between each as in the exhaust stream so this is how we can use an O2 sensor to control to stoich.

That's the easy part. Your job is to find out why the mixture isn't stoich or in other words find out why the mixture has more or less O2 than around .5%. Not an easy thing to do without the right gear and knowing what causes each gas to change. As a rule this is what's involved:

CO means a rich mixture. O2 means a lean mixture. CO2 is an indicator of combustion efficiency, the higher it is the better and more complete combustion was. It peaks at around 15% and an engine at stoich will always be close to that. HC is unburned fuel. Period. It's gasoline that wasn't combusted. Usually caused by an ignition problem (misfire) but can also be from things like valve deposits, oil diluted with fuel (it's why you change your oil before a test), a saturated EVAP system. ect. Anything that makes gasoline go out the tailpipe unburned will cause high HC..

NOx is due to high combustion temps over 2000 degrees. It's only at this temp and above nitrogen in the air (which normally passes unchanged through the engine) combines with oxygen to form NOx. Causes are a faulty EGR system (reducing NOx is it's sole purpose), bad cooling system (high engine temps), bad fans, incorrect timing, anything that causes high temps in the engine or cylinders. NOx is a tricky bugger because it's maximum occurs very close to stoich. Let the mixture drift just a bit lean and NOx shoots up. The mixture must be controlled right at stoich so once again it's the place to start.

Those are the basics (trust me, there's lots more to know) but armed with that you have a chance. My point is any time the numbers are way off the first place to start is with the engine in closed loop and the O2 sensor is at the heart of it. Good ignition, fresh oil, clean air filter, and minimal carbon deposits are also a must but feed the cat stoich and if it's healthy it'll do it's job.

Whew. Good luck...
 
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very nice write up jet jock. Ill take your points and info into consideration and explain some things to the mom. We changed the air filter and plug wires and it had a fresh oil change just before the emissions. Ill have her buy some spark plugs and an o2 sensor and see where we go from there. If it doesnt work out ill just have her take it to a shop..

according to that chart what do you consider high or low when looking @ C02. The chart from emissions says the CO2 on the car is 327.00.

Also the chart on that site displays o2 not NOx whats the diff?
 
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jetjock

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Mr. Sinister said:
Which part(s) were wrong? I was told all that stuff over and over again by guys who do all sorts of emission related repairs who finally got my Supra to pass. Doesn't seem wrong according to this chart either:

http://www.interro.com/techgas.html#anchorchart1

Not arguing. Just want to learn.


>High CO is usually caused by a bad/not hot enough cat.<

High CO is indicative of a rich mixture. Now it's true if the cat wasn't lit CO would be higher than normal but so would HC. And the cat in and of itself couldn't possibly be responsible for his numers. They're way to high.

>High HC means you're running too rich.<

HC is unburned fuel. It can occur from a rich mixture but only after rich misfire has set it in. It's not indicative of a rich mixture in and of itself. Of course, high HC will also occur with lean misfire. But you were right, his mixture is rich.

Find and study a 5 gas chart so you can see the relationship between the gases. Don't feel bad, emission repairs are tricky stuff. It's why those who do it need to be licensed. You either misunderstood the guys who explained it to you or they were confused. That chart is only a simple guideline.

Fwiw I was once CA. BAR 97 certified. I let it expire because it was never my intention to do emissions work for a living. I only got the licencse because I believe the best way to learn something like that is to use a course that satisfies a state or federal entity. The license was just frosting on the cake. I also own 3 NDIR gas analyzers (two 4 gassers and a 5 gas) and do emissions work for friends, family, and a car club (not Supra related) I belong to.
 

jetjock

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NDBoost said:
according to that chart what do you consider high or low when looking @ C02. The chart from emissions says the CO2 on the car is 327.00. Also the chart on that site displays o2 not NOx whats the diff?

The IM240 test measures grams/mile. It's different from the ASM test used in Cali and many other states so I'd have to convert CO2 grams/mile into CO2&#37; and at this point I'm at a loss as to how to do it. But since CO2 always goes down as the mixture gets richer (and your CO shows the mixture to be rich) I'm sure your CO2 is lower than it should be.

As I said, CO2 is a indicator of combustion efficiency. The higher it is the better. For an engine running closed loop and maintaining a stoichiometric mixture CO2 should be close to max. Typical valves are 13-15%.

O2 is, of course, oxygen. It comprises about 21% of the air we breath. The balance of the atmosphere is nitrogen (N2) and a few trace gases. NOx is a term used to describe nitrogen oxides. There are several oxides of nitrogen so they're collectively referred to as NO''x".

Since N2 is around 78% of the atmosphere it goes into the engine along with the O2 required for combustion. Normally N2 is inert and stays separate from the oxygen but when exposed to temps over 2000 degrees they combine to form nitrogen oxides. It's why combustion temps need to be kept below that. As long as they are NOx production is minimal ie; the O2 and N2 remain separate.

Thee high temps tend to happen under load so by injecting cool (relatively speaking) exhaust gases back into the intake manifold the EGR system keeps the combustion temps down and prevents the formation of NOx, hence the name Exhaust Gas Recirculation system. EGR is disabled at idle and WOT.

One of the most common oxides of nitrogen is NO2 or nitrogen dioxide. NO2 is what actually causes smog. It causes the brownish haze you sometimes see hanging in the air. In short O2 good, NOx bad.